I don’t have much of a problem either way as I don’t think I’ll be engaging in political discussion on this website past this post but it seems like any sort of non-left wing opinions or posts are immediately trashed on here. That’s fine. There’s clearly a more liberal audience here and that’s okay. I just don’t want Lemmy to become a echo chamber for any side and it seems to be that way when it comes to politics already.
Mostly making this post just to drum up discussion as I’m new here.
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Yes, they are completely unwelcome. Anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders is immediately labeled a “fascist” as as justification to dunk on them. Doesn’t matter how civil or well-argued their opinions are. Don’t believe me? Just wait a few hours and then look at the responses to this comment.
If you care AT ALL about fairness and balance of opinions, then this is absolutely not the instance for you.
Hey man, you’re not arguing in good faith, and I think you know it. We’re building a different space here than the one we left. Please stop trying to ragebait by building straw man arguments that don’t reflect the reality of the discourse here. Choose to be better.
How am I ragebaiting? Am I wrong? It’s been made clear time and time again that any opinion that is even somewhat right leaning is not welcome here. To point this out is not “ragebaiting” and that’s completely absurd that you would even claim that.
Yet again, y’all prove my point. Anyone who disagrees with the hivemind is apparently not here in good faith (even when they are).
It’s been made clear time and time again
Please cite examples. This entire post is disproving this already.
To point this out is not “ragebaiting” and that’s completely absurd that you would even claim that.
It’s absurd to come in here, throw around vague accusations, and then do absolutely no work to back up those claims.
the hivemind
There are already more viewpoints being expressed within respondents to this post than in typical reddit front page subs. I’m sorry but it is not good faith to start name calling. I feel like you know that, though.
If you care AT ALL about fairness and balance of opinions, then this is absolutely not the instance for you.
If this is how you feel, why are you here? Users on our instance who are actively attempting to sabotage the instance rather than engage in discussion are not helpful. Coming out from a 20 day hiatus to only share a negative opinion is relatively harmless as a single action, but imagine if there were a bunch of people like you on this instance - it would make this place extremely negative and result in a lot of comments which served no purpose but to upset others.
I’m confused as to why you’d post such a reddit-esque bait statement when so many of the responses are civil, patient, and respectfully explaining viewpoints without attacking OP. Don’t you think discourse can be better than that? Don’t you want to at least give it a chance?
Wouldn’t that depend on the historic understanding of GOP politics in the United States? There was a time when the Democrats were the problematic group and the GOP were not…the tables have flipped. For me, personally, I am invested in Beehaw’s ‘Northern Star’ or guiding principle -> be(e) nice.
Depends entirely on the Instance and the rules they enforce. Here on Beehaw specifically? This is primarily an instance for safety and inclusivity and the people here are, naturally, not going to look positively on right wing opinions.
Modern conservative politics and “polite discussion” are like oil and water.
If your “conservative / right wing opinion” is that austerity measures are a good thing, then the most generous interpretation of that is that you’re just a moron. As it turns out, though, today’s “conservative / right wing opinions” are way worse than that. Things like “trans people aren’t people”. Or “we should do a treason”. Or “bribing supreme court justices is totally fine”. If you hold any of those opinions, the most generous interpretation of that is that you’re evil. And probably also stupid. That is the MOST generous interpretation, mind.
I think we need to have better conservative content. All of what your describing sounds like negative characterizations of conservatives made by far left individuals.
Yes, there are some absolute morons in the world. Probably a lot of them. But not all conservatives are morons, despite what many left leaning people would like to believe due to the polarization brought about by social media echo chambers.
The issue is the party overwealming supports these ideas, we are not debating what color school busses should be or how we should ensure we have clean water into the future, we are instead debating should X group be allowed to live. An option that involves taking rights from others based on misinformation isn’t an opinion.
You are essentially using a “no true Scotsman” defense here, which is wild given the public stances of America’s Conservative Party, the GOP.
You act like they are talking about outliers but the whole GOP is in lockstep with those awful stances and decisions. You say we need better conservative content? I say you need better conservative leadership because the majority of conservatives follow what they are fed of fox, oann, and whatever other sources of disinfo
Come back to us when the official party line isn’t supporting the big lie, or attacking climate change or attacking science and vaccines and masking, or that trans people shouldn’t exist, or that students should not be given the forgiveness that those with money get (PPP vs student loan forgiveness), or that Russia and Putin are not our allies nor role models, I could go on and on and on.
You want a better conservative image? You need better conservatives first. Talk about putting the cart before the horse
You say what we mention is mischaracterizations made by the left. Please, point out which are untrue
Yes, this is true, many conservative people are smart - they worked out that in order to get money and power they can exploit conservative talking points easily because they don’t have to be truthful, thoughtful, or in any way care about other people
True. Many of them are just plain evil. But I would argue that the vast majority are some combination of evil and stupid.
I think we need to have better conservative content.
Haven’t seen a lot of examples of that for many decades.
I have yet to see a modern conservative position that is more backed by real world evidence than whatever more progressive position it opposes.
Climate change? Denying overwhelming scientific consensus. Gun control? “It doesn’t work”, even though it works in every other western country. Healthcare? “But the death panels will decide if you get to live”, they don’t exist, and are used as pretense to ignore all those people who die because they can’t afford treatment. Car infrastructure? It’s literally better for drivers if more people are using transit or cycling. Student loans? I don’t even know what the argument is here except “I had to pay them so everyone else should too”. The money certainly isn’t going towards the teachers.
Some of these are US specific, but the sentiment is the same everywhere. The list goes on and on. If someone refuses to listen to any reason or evidence and instead bases their worldview on only their own, limited lived experience, why shouldn’t they be characterized as a moron? And if they understand that their view isn’t based in reality and they hold it anyways, why not call that actively malicious?
I’ve always loved the irony of the argument that if the government pays for healthcare, there will be “death panels” that decide who gets treatment and who doesn’t. Because those already exist under and directly because of a system of private healthcare funding where if you don’t have enough money, you’re refused treatment. Meanwhile under a system of public healthcare funding, people get treatment based on who’s most in need of the resources available, and that’s only if the system is already over capacity.
Lmao fucking seriously.
Routinely my primary fucking care physician will approve a prescription just for my fucking insurance to say you know what, we will BLOCK that medication from being released to you at the pharm cuz we don’t wanna pay for it yet. Try again next week!!
god fucking damnit like let me just pay for it out of pocket!! They won’t let me.
Private insurance death panels are alive and well lol
The conservatives you’re describing are becoming more uncommon by the day. So much of conservative politics now is driven by misinformation and fear, I legitimately can’t remember the last time I had a constructive conversation with a conservative. They live in a different world, which makes constructive discussion almost impossible.
I would agree with you, but at least in the US majority of conservatives fully embraced those moronic ideas.
The people that call themselves conservatives no longer are conservatives, their only goal is how to hurt “liberals”.
At this point true conservatives that still care about the country started voting for democrats or not vote at all, but they are now labeled as RINOS.
I know it is a loaded term, and many will quickly dismiss it, (but it is correct given the definition), but the party was taken over by fascists and real conservatives aren’t doing anything to take their party back.
At this point true conservatives that still care about the country started voting for democrats
Compared to most countries, Democrats are conservatives. And Republicans are extreme right wing.
The US doesn’t have a left wing party. Nor even a truly centrist one.
due to the polarization brought about by social media echo chambers.
Due to the actions of recent right wing political parties whe gaining any power.
That’s a bit like saying
"How dare you call us all arsehole. Because we keep voting for arseholes to lead our parties. "
Unless you and others are prepared to form a right wing that opposes these ideas. Then that is the reputation the right deserves.
For the record, I would not consider myself right wing. But I do oppose many leftist ideologies. Grievance studies (Critical race theory, queer theory, and other ideologies based in post modern belief systems), for instance, are eroding many useful and productive enlightenment ideas. Color blindness is a legitimate way to reduce racism. Instead, leftists believe they should elevate group identity at all costs, thereby expanding and heightening racism. Queer theory denies human physiology, elevating the idea that everything is socially constructed. This framework is a grave distortion of the reality.
I agree that conservatives need to do a better job with their policies. Trump was a stain, and the few (okay maybe more than a few) loud idiots in the party make conservatism look bad. But if left wingers only get their information about right wingers from hyper left sources, we are going to have a lot of distorted views.
On social media, people are served more and more radical content. Much of that content includes great distortions of the “other side,” which pushes people further into an untenable and undesirable belief system.
We need more debate and we also need people to stop simply calling the other side morons.
To be absolutely clear to anyone who runs across this, this person has been banned from our instance, you don’t need to report it again. The only reason this reply is still up, is for others to see all the ways in which this person is wrong and the whole they dug themselves when they did reply to someone and were rightfully reported and ejected from our instance.
Grievance studies (Critical race theory, queer theory, and other ideologies based in post modern belief systems), for instance, are eroding many useful and productive enlightenment ideas.
Have you studied any of these yourself? Or are you relying on characterizations of them you heard in media?
Color blindness is a legitimate way to reduce racism.
In theory, sure. But in practice it often gets used as a rug to sweep racism under.
Instead, leftists believe they should elevate group identity at all costs, thereby expanding and heightening racism.
Keep on mind this is a society where certain groups have been marginalized and terrorized for decades or even centuries. “Elevating” them is only a reaction to that long-entrenched bigotry. But (what’s that quote?..) when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Attempting to bring historically marginalized groups into equal footing with mainstream groups probably will look like they’re being “elevated” to the people who enjoy the privilege of being accepted broadly by default.
Yes, I have a Ph.D., you will encounter grievance studies and post modern ideologies when you pursue this path. I have indeed studied the philosophical foundations of these ideologies. I don’t agree with post modern ideologies, nor do I agree that you can state that something is purely constructed by a culture. An individual is defined both by their physiology and their societal structure. It’s physiology and culture. Post modernism denies objective truth. I believe in objective truth. I also believe in intentionality, which post modernism denies. We could go on. Stop using the “have you actually studied this” argument and actually engage in productive debate. An appeal to academic authority is really not useful here.
It seems some forget, for instance, that the native population of America benefitted greatly from their encounters with colonial people from France and Britain. They sold and traded items. They learned knew technologies. Hell, many native tribes fought alongside the Americans during the American revolution. They also fought alongside France. The whole situation of the American colonies is really messy. Anyway, colonialism is not a black and white issue.
Either you’re the stupidest person who has ever received a PhD in the world, or you’re a fucking liar. There’s absolutely no god damned way that you can hold this many imbecilic, counter-to-reality views while having had to engage with primary sources for the multiple years it took to achieve a PhD. Stop lying, seriously. Nobody buys your bullshit anyway.
It seems some forget, for instance, that the native population of America benefitted greatly from their encounters with colonial people from France and Britain.
ah, yes, the minimum of 30 million people killed just in the Americas really benefited. get out of here with this settler colonialist apologia, my dude. you are a textbook case of why nobody is interested in hearing out conservative “thought”, which appears to be impossibly tied to being pro-genocide.
Colour blindness is not a way of combatting racism.
If you have a real world system, and you bias it heavily to be unequal, then you try and correct it by biasing it to be equal, the average output is still vastly unequal, and the absolute best case scenario you can hope for is that it will trend towards equality over time without ever reaching it.
There’s a reason that people who actually study and think about the topic come out as antiracist and people who don’t think it about it except when it inconveniences them just wish everyone would stop talking about it and we could pretend like it didn’t exist.
Yes, it is. There are a lot of academics that have fallen prey to post modern ideologies like anti racism. But there are also academics that haven’t, like myself and John McWhorter.
‘nuh uh I don’t believe that’ isn’t an argument.
I’ve explained how balanced system + inequality + balanced system = inequality, and you’ve just said “nuh uh that’s not convenient for me”.
Wow, what a shocking comment. Explains your original I suppose.
You can’t just lay judgement on something because you don’t like it. You need to actually understand it, hopefully your read the other responses you got with an open mind, lest ye drift deeper into bigotry via ignorance (chosen ignorance, at that)
Queer theory denies human physiology, elevating the idea that everything is socially constructed
You’re already getting pushback on your other points, so I thought I would weigh in here. Biologically speaking, sex is multifaceted, variable, and somewhat malleable. Even anatomically or physiologically scientists say that gender and sex are not as simple or clean cut as you are making it out to be. Additionally, gender diverse people can be found across all cultures and throughout history - transgender people are not an invention of the post-modern era.
I don’t think that acknowledging the reality that human experience is complex and multi-faceted is a left wing value. It is evident to anyone who honestly engages with scientific consensus and with the lived experiences of LGBTQ folks that those people exist. They’re not going anywhere, and I don’t think it’s especially “left wing” to say we ought to make space for them in society to just live their lives as they are.
Saying that austerity is always bad is pretty dumb too. Economic policy is hard. It’s not a simple as shoving one lever in one direction as far as possible forever.
For example, “austerity” could mean ending corporate subsidies, taxing the wealthy, auditing the wealthy, reducing the military budget, canceling freeway expansions, etc. Too much public debt can absolutely be a bad thing and needs to be controlled.
I concede that you’ve got a point that austerity isn’t an all or nothing proposition. But your examples are laughable. No country that has implemented “austerity measures” has ever interpreted that as “ending corporate subsidies”, or “taxing the wealthy”, or in any way fucking with the wealthy or military’s purse. It just doesn’t happen. I agree, that would be an amazing thing. But it just doesn’t exist in human history. What ends up happening instead is that they cut the educational budget. Or they cut social programs, like housing subsidies or food subsidies. Because governments aren’t run by the lowest common denominator, who actually benefits from those programs. They’re run by the wealthy. So no government is going to fuck over its supporters by cutting their benefits.
That depends on your definition of conservative and right wing. Casual observation the last few weeks Ive been here, but this instance leans left. You wont get banned for trying to preach fiscal conservatism or having a religion here. Certain stuff may not make you popular either depending on what conservative ideology you’re preaching.
Ive noticed the mods and admins here dont play the usual troll game. So any dog whistles, trolling, and bad faith stuff gets shutdown.
Differing opinions and perspectives, when able to be discussed rationally and with sufficient emotional awareness of others.
Arguments like, “my book says what you’re doing is murder”, “being who you are is a sin” leave no room for sensible discussion, and in many contexts amount to hateful conduct which is not welcome here. Remember that be(e)ing nice holds paramount, which puts a threshold on how heated arguments should get on Beehaw.
I’ve conversed and debated with conservatives a lot. While we might think the other is misguided in their opinion, we often have a productive discussion. Speaking in broad generalities, conservatives tend to believe in a universal, immovable moral structure, whereas liberals tend to believe in more nuances morality that works dynamically based on context and varies from person to person. It’s not an easy barrier to overcome, but with some efforts from both you and your debate opponent it is possible.
Two things are important to me when I debate. First, I try to reiterate their argument so that I am not misunderstanding it before I say may own. Second, I highlight and clarify where specifically our beliefs differ and where they overlap. The reason I do this, is that I debate others not to just be a shouting match where the loudest opinion wins, but find mutual understanding even in disagreement.
I’m not sure why “I don’t want to see a space become an echo chamber” is always what gets said. Everywhere else IS a right wing echo chamber for the most part? Conservatives aren’t the ones chased from reddit and twitter?
What probably isnt welcome is questioning people’s right to exist, right to live unmolested because of someone else’s beliefs (and real molested, not "i saw a minority existed), and the right to make your own medical choices for yourself and your kids. Considering means testing has been proven a waste and the right opposes taxing fair share, i wouldn’t even argue that actual financial conservation is even a point the party makes.
So it’s really hard to see what need this space has for those talking points. Unless it’s actually about being open to real discussion, which frankly facts aren’t often on the side of the right, what good to this community do these ideas offer?
What should be asked is what place does the Right/Conservative philosophy as a whole have in the Lemmy ethos? Is it in and of itself could be argued to be an antithesis to the whole structure and philosophy. Can authoritarian ideals thrive where they cannot take power?
Tumblr i the only other real leftist space I think. You could maybe put baseline social media is somewhat leftist, tik tok, instagram, snapchat, most of those have a leftist lean, primarily because they trend younger. Your general use social media is going to have a left/right lean based on age demographics. That’s just the lean those general social medias are going to have.
Oh yeah tumblr. They pride themselves on being extreme i think in some of the spheres, where as i think nost people in this space are sharing deeply held beliefs. Most of the extreme stuff i see from there seems to be teens/outrage bait.
I forget the ages but i think beehaw/lemmy skews a tad older?
It basically has to skew older, probably 25 to 30+ The vast majority of those younger are going to be on tiktok, sc, insta, or something like discord. Lemmy will be considered more “left” overall than even reddit was. There will be of course bad instances, but i think pressure to defederate from them overall will be strong, especially when the “free speech” instances start having difficult legal questions thrown at them when their users inevitably start saying the quiet part out loud.
God i hate discords and what they have done with gaming documentation. I am completely turned off by any indie dev who requires you join their discord.
But im here, clearly i like forums. The fact that discord is basically backwards adding in forums with their threads thing is proof forums are still useful!
There’s probably a sizable group of younger individuals, talking like 14-18 that are your kinda weird kids who don’t have strong interpersonal social groups and instead compensate with the internet. The ones who find community in various instances are going to probably trend heavily left over time as they’re exposed, inadvertently, to things they wouldn’t normally be if they had more socionormative relationships.
No well adjusted 16 year old with a gaggle of friends is hanging out on sunday night in the summer on lemmy unless they have a very atypical social circle, autism, or both. And I don’t say autism in a derogatory way.
I was that kid back in 2004-2005 who had no social friend group and found connection with people through 4chan when I was 14. The exact same type of people who were attracted to chans way back when are the type of people that are going to be attracted to lemmy and federation. The only difference is this time the chans are already cemented and those who fall into the alt-right pipeline already have their destination mapped out for them. Those that aren’t sucked into the hateful rhetoric will likely find there way here as content seeps into the rest of the internet by osmosis.
Discord is extremely popular among well adjusted teen groups and social outcasts in equal order, it has strongly become “the third location” fpr a lot of people. Instead of hanging out at a skate park, or the mall, or in AIM chats, they’re hanging out in VC on Discord.
My experience hasnt been like yours at all and i am sorry you think you’re weird or something?
I mean i was a loner because geographically a lot of kids didn’t live near me. I took the time to learn about people and everyone who works with me likes me, but i also kept myself safe and i enjoy being weird.
My experience with discord is it’s a place like highschool where people get shut out if they arent as loud.
Im not sure why you’re anti thoughtful young people, i think people enjoy a lot of different activities and informing yourself of the world around you is exactly what makes well adjusted people, not late jight drunken hang outs.
It’s been weird. Have a good one and work on thinking better about tech and those hobbies. No one “well adjusted” really throws that stuff away as inherently maladaptive. I think in person peer pressure not to grow because you live around ignorant people wont have a lot of appeal to a good person.
Depending on what you’re calling an opinion…
No one is stopping anyone from opening their own instances, but the rest have the right to not federate if the content on that place goes against their own instance rules and personal beliefs. This is the good thing about the fediverse, you can choose the kind of people and content you interact with
I just don’t want Lemmy to become a echo chamber for any side and it seems to be that way when it comes to politics already.
a political space leaning towards a certain side is, naturally, going to be an echo chamber. i mean, couldn’t i just call every right-leaning space a conservative echo chamber too? imo, we need to stop perpetuating the myth that “neutral” spaces are normal, & “echo chambers” are some new bad thing that the leftists keep doing to shield themselves from information. when people call a group an “echo chamber”, what they really mean is “a group that shows bias”, & because it’s natural for humans to show bias, most social hierarchies we form tend to naturally bias towards certain opinions too.
every group of humans, whether on the internet or in real life, is an echo chamber that reflects the beliefs & opinions of the most active users. there’s always a majority opinion, & from what i’ve experienced groups that try to avoid their biases just tend to turn into places that feel completely unnatural to talk in, where everyone dances around eggshells what they truly believe but end up letting it bleed through anyway. & from the introductory posts that describe the spirit of this site, that situation the exact opposite of what this instance was made for.
so while it’s not strictly against the rules to be conservative, & i don’t think it’s fair to say that conservative opinions are completely unwelcome on beehaw* (there are definitely conservative & center-right leaning instances out there so i don’t think it’s fair to ask about all of lemmy in the title), if you’re looking for other people here to agree with you, well bad news - a leftist bias here will be unavoidable. if you choose to participate here, you just have to accept the fact that this instance is made up primarily of leftist users, & thus threads here always be naturally biased primarily towards leftists opinions.
In addition to what others have said, i think it really depends on what ones frame is for “conservative”. Much of what the US would consider left-wing is what I, being in europe, would consider center-right, for example.
Hopefully.
Liberalism is also a right wing ideology.
As a self described leftist, I’m open to discussing almost anything in a respectful manner. I’m not going to shit on anyone just for have a different opinion, but I’m going to argue my viewpoint when I feel led to. And I’m certainly going to call someone out for being bigoted, disrespectful, or spreading misinformation. A lot of those things are not well received by those on the right and may make them feel unwelcome, but that’s really not my problem.
Just had one of those conversations the other day, where “We don’t want racists around here” met with “why don’t you like conservatives”. It’s funny when they tell on themselves like that.
I feel like it’s not a matter of which side and more if the position that someone tries to advertise is clearly lacking empathy or consideration towards others.
If that’s all the right-leaning topics are about, I don’t know what to tell you really.
So, I commented earlier about why right-wing opinions are trash in general, but I realized that I never addressed the meat of your question, which was: “Are[sic] Conservative/Right-Wing opinions completely unwelcome on Lemmy?”. Which, I’ve gotta say, is an incredibly stupid fucking question. Lemmy is a federated space, which means that anybody can set up their own server, with their own rules, and be part of the wider “Lemmy”. A much better question, since you’re posting on beehaw.org is: “Are Conservative / Right-Wing opinions completely unwelcome on Beehaw?”, which is answerable based on knowledge of the administrator(s) of Beehaw.
But, really, any fascist dipshit with a spare server and an internet connection can start their own Lemmy instance, and they’d fucking love your stupid fucking Right-Wing Opinions.
So, in short, your question is stupid, and your opinions are trash. Thank you, and goodnight.
Others have already provided a lot of detailed answers to the OP, and the question in and of itself isn’t necessarily harmful even if it misses the point of federation. But this level of aggression is really unnecessary - please keep it nice if you’re participating on Beehaw.
