An Alabama inmate would be the test subject for the “experimental” execution method of nitrogen hypoxia, his lawyers argued, as they asked judges to deny the state’s request to carry out his death sentence using the new method.
In a Friday court filing, attorneys for Kenneth Eugene Smith asked the Alabama Supreme Court to reject the state attorney general’s request to set an execution date for Smith using the proposed new execution method. Nitrogen gas is authorized as an execution method in three states but it has never been used to put an inmate to death.
Smith’s attorneys argued the state has disclosed little information about how nitrogen executions would work, releasing only a redacted copy of the proposed protocol.
This is interesting, and I personally feel he is fighting it only because it buys him more time. In a different article (linked in this one), where they announce Alabama’s plan to use nitrogen it says:
Smith, in seeking to block the state’s second attempt to execute him by lethal injection, had argued that nitrogen should be available.
So he literally asked to use nitrogen, they said “ok” and now’s he’s saying “how dare you try to use me as a guinea pig”
If you think his inconsistent argument is ridiculous, you don’t understand the legal system. It’s okay, that’s why there are lawyers. (1) Alternate pleading is a thing, (2) the State pulls the same shit except 1000% worse, (3) the judiciary, especially the GOP judiciary that is elected on a “tough on crime” platform (got to love politicized justice), is ABSOLUTELY the most inconsistent, as their goal is to accept any argument of the State that leads to speedy execution. It goes all the way up to the SCOTUS - former Chief Justice Rehnquist was absolutely a shining star of the death machine, regardless of actual innocence. EDIT: the thing that really pisses me off is when the media covers alternate pleading without context. It’s terribly biased reporting designed to give people justice boners and pump up support for the State. EDIT2: I might be slightly off with my terms of art - I’m in transactional law, not criminal law, and it’s been a hell of a long time since law school or anything involving criminal law beyond a traffic ticket.
“I think something should be available” is not the same as “I volunteer to test it out”.
For example, I think ejection seats should be available on all fighter jets.
Fair point!
The correct analogy would be you refusing to get out of a fighter jet except via ejection seats, them refusing to be ejected lol. This guy apparently wasn’t saying it should be available in general but that it should be an option for him.
That said, I am in principle against executions.
This guy is apparently saying that he wants to know how they are planning to use nitrogen gas, and the state is refusing to tell him.
So the correct analogy would be you refusing to get out of a fighter jet except via ejection seats. Then someone says, “Okay you can get out via ‘ejection seats’, happy now?”. Then you say, “Hey what’s up with the air quotes around ‘ejection seats’? What exactly are you planning anyway? How does this ejection seat work?”. Then they say, “Don’t you worry about the details buddy. You’ll be ‘ejected’ from your ‘seat’, LOL! Now shut up and get in the plane”.
Shocking news: man on death row does not want to die.
More at 11.
We should not be executing anyone. Hypoxia is well documented so he would not exactly be a test subject.
Note: if I were to commit medically induced suicide it would be by nitrogen hypoxia. By alla counts it is the best way to go.
1000% and I hope to have the right to die via this method some day.
Do we not have the right to kill ourselves?
What about n2o hypoxia?
And alla is seldom wrong about these things
The test is not of the efficacy of hypoxia, but of the state’s competency.
Going to guess it is significantly easier to be competent enough to kill someone with hypoxia rather than a cocktail of multiple constantly changing drugs administered by someone who had little training.
So put a bullet in his head and call it a day. Enough with this bullshit.
the state should just execute everyone who says it’s okay for the state to execute someone
Seriously, who gives a fuck about boring legal motions when we’re about to give the blood god his due?!
Sacrifice! Sacrifice!
We’re so fuckin’ horny for it!!
Make sure the pentagram is nice and even. Remember, the inside angle is 36 degrees.
Even those who defend murderers should learn to use a straight-edge and compass.
Where did I defend a murderer?
I’m thirsty for their blood just like you!
There’s nothing more important than killing people who we’ve already removed from society; how else are we going to satisfy our horniness?
Still breathing our air. I guess those who defend convicted murderers enjoy breathing in what they exhale. Do you want to fluff up their pillow too?
You keep saying I’m defending a murderer when I just want to get my rocks off like you.
Unless fluffing their pillow makes you climax better? I’m into it if you are.
And fuck them for taking all of our air! We need that shit!
We do need that shit. luckily no matter what all the murderer defenders come up with, this asswipe is dead-man-walking.
I know, I’m so turgid right now!
Let’s bag this guy and release some hormones! Enough waiting!!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Milk for the Khorneflakes!
This comment was funny but your argument with this guy became kinda dumb.
This dude forfeited his life for crimes he absolutely unequivocally committed. How he is killed, he has no right to decide. We the people do. Original commenter dude has a rough take but it isn’t that cruel, fuck murderers they’re fortunate we the people dislike violence and actively seek humane executions.
But the US justice system has proven time and again that it is not to be trusted with killing prisoners.
We have literally thousands of examples of innocent people being killed due to faults in our justice system; how many innocent people are acceptable to kill to keep this failure of an institution standing?
Life in prison is both less expensive and leaves the situation open to remuneration in the case of wrongful conviction.
Don’t disagree but does feel like a moment to point out America’s war crimes and what we’ve done to the world. This isn’t a wrongful killing and this isn’t generations of cancer and trauma and ruined societies because of our country.
This particular person right here is guilty though and in this one instance, fuck him. Fuck this guy. He is not part of our society, he’s not our friend or an ally or even deserving of humanity we treat one another with for how he treated one of us. It is decided he will experience the first version of this method of removal. He has no right to decide how, that is forfeit for him and allowing him to have that is injustice to the people he’s harmed.
And homie above saying fuck it shoot him was bad taste but jeez it is a tasteless comment at best.
Because unironically, shooting him in the head would be infinitely cheaper, infinitely quicker, and infinitely more fun for the executioner than any other method save for hanging (except for the quicker part).
It’s also painless, the most expensive cost would be hiring someone to clean up afterwards.
Something else you have to keep in mind with people like this, we do not ask to be born into society, or as humans. Most of us enjoy who we are and love being a part of society for the most part, but killers often time do not feel human, they feel like it is the world and themselves, separate not the same. Whatever the case may be that causes this, including a condition or mental illness.
Yes, what has to be done must be done, but you should understand that it is not something that is done or should be done out of some kind of revenge hate fetish, it is something that is done to remove those people from our society because they are unfortunately too dangerous to be left alive, too dangerous to live even in a standard prison.
Once you start adding hate, anger, revenge, etc to the mix, you might as well just start throwing the zyklon b and burn pits in too, because that’s what a society that kills with hatred does. Unless that person has specifically done something to you, your family, or your friends, you should harbor no hatred for them, only sympathy.
I won’t lose sleep over a real murderer being killed.
My issue is the systemic failure of our justice system, not a guilty individual losing their life. So I’ll ask again: how many innocent people is it worth sacrificing to get the ones who really have it coming, and why?
We know that innocent people will be killed via capital punishment. Why is the institution worth keeping when life in prison is cheaper and allows for remuneration when the justice system inevitably gets one wrong?
Well, it’s not like we should treat 20 years in prison less lightly. And we certainly do.
Nitrogen Execution?
They’re gonna freeze him and
striketap him with abaseball bathammer?Then deploy a bunch of Roombas to clean up the human icicle shards?
That’s liquid nitrogen, bro. This is nitrogen gas which in a confined space will consume all of the available oxygen and thus induce asphyxiation (suffocation).
Some might even consider this a kink 👀👀
It doesn’t consume oxygen. Gaseous nitrogen is very stable.
However, if there is a higher concentration of nitrogen than there should be, then you take in proportionally less oxygen in each breath.
Jokes on them when the shards melt, and begin to reform, to continue his inexorable pursuit of John Connor
That would be the liquid nitrogen execution.
The state should never execute anyone because it implies two things that aren’t true:
- That the system is infallible.
- That a person doesn’t have the capacity to improve/rehabilitate.
That being said. I’ll take this method over any other for sure.
I agree with part 1, but the majority of people on death row do not deserve rehabilitation.
That’s pretty fucked up man.
What about the fact that death penalties usually cost more than life sentences without parole?
See point 1.
The system isn’t infallible. There’s always a small (but non-zero) chance that they put an innocent person to death. There are multiple records of people being put to death and later being found innocent.
That’s enough justification for me to abolish the death penalty.
I misunderstood your comment ^^’
I absolutely agree with you in the first point, but I think there are cases where person really doesn’t have the capacity, or we don’t want to try it. I think of mass murderers or child murderers or something like that. People who are going to spend their whole life in jail with life-sentence with no way of ever getting out and who cost the state money and are the reason why some people want death sentence back in my country for example. The first point still applies however and there are cases of people getting out of jail after ten or fifteen years when new evidence is discovered.
Lol, way to shoot yourself in the foot. Nitrogen hypoxia is probably the absolute most humane execution method ever conceived. This is not new info either. You literally slip into happy fun time and never come out.
You literally slip into happy fun time
Is it really ‘happy fun time’ if you know you’re going to die?
I got a bit hypoxic on top of a mountain. It was 29°F with the wind you’d expect at 14000ft, and I’m just standing there in a t-shirt because I was just so nice and warm, also I was so loopy I could not stop laughing.
Did you die?
Yes, but they got better after.
Phew
Listen to audio recordings of pilots with hypoxia, they understand something is very wrong with the plane, but they also think it’s just fine because they’re having a great day.
I always think about Destin from Smarter Everyday when I think about hypoxia. He does such a great job at articulating what he experienced and how difficult it was to know what to do in that moment.
I always think of thatt moment when they’re like “it’s time to put your mask back on or you’re going to die destin!” and he just looks at them with a terrified half smile and was barely capable of saying “I don’t know what to do…”
Which video was that? Would greatly appreciate a link if you can find it, thank you!
Edit: I believe it was this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfF2MTnqAw
Edit2: Just finsihed that video, holy crap that’s a must watch for people. tl;dw, when a plane is cruising at 35,000 feet and the cabin loses oxygen, you have at best 15-30 seconds before you pass out, so when the airlines says mask up first before helping others, it will literally save your life.
delivered
Yeah that’s the one, I figured with those key words people could easily find it.
Weirdly enough, it might be. There are videos of people deliberately testing hypoxia. I’ve seen one where the person controlling the test told the participant “you know you are dying right now, right?” and the participant responded “Oh” with a big smile. Now maybe the participant was more chill because they knew beforehand that they weren’t actually going to die. But they were still completely non-phased watching their brain shut down in real time.
I’m opposed to the death penalty. But if I had to choose my own way out of this world? Hypoxia is probably top of the list.
Might be trying to delay the execution itself since there is a shortage of the “regular” injection they use because of embargoes?
You’ve experienced this?
Completely ignoring that execution is wrong for a number of reasons
I also completely ignored the issue of world hunger in my reply. I don’t get your point.
Why would you even bring up hunger when human trafficking exists in the world? Shame on you.
Guys, I think I found a solution to both. Hear me out.
What if we feed the trafficked humans to the hungry humans.
Win win. No more trafficked humans and no more hungry humans.
I change my mind. THIS is now the most humane execution method ever conceived.
If done right. You know that people qualified to do it right don’t participate in executions, right?
That’s why they fuck up giving someone injections on a regular basis.
How does one fuck up flooding a room with nitrogen gas?
So you see no difference in lethal injection and filling a room with nitrogen? If not, there’s no point discussing it with you. But I’ll give you a hint! Worst case, there’s not enough NO2 to cause death, so the subject gets stoned as balls and they introduce more.
This ain’t rocket science.
I see no difference in an incompetent person trying something they are not qualified to do and then trying to do another thing they are unqualified to do. I expect them to fail at both.
You also don’t appear to understand how the NO2 process works. It isn’t that they just need to add more N02, they also need to remove the oxygen AND CO2 at the same time. That is actually fairly complicated and requires knowledge on air movement in a restricted space. If they can’t properly dose someone with needles, good luck on them doing it right with airflow.
This isn’t a “gas chamber” type of execution. They’re putting a mask on the person with nitrogen gas. Though the state’s executioners are so incompetent that they’ll probably end up gassing themselves.
When the original news broke about Alabama using nitrogen, my wife woke me up by hitting my arm to tell me - because I’ve been saying that is the most humane possible method for the last 16 years.
I think the death penalty is stupid to begin with, and am kinda over talking about its merits after years of debate team in high school and college. But trying all of these seat-of-pants cocktails of midazolam and pentobarbital etc, and then inventing all of these ridiculous devices that require two people to push buttons at the same time so no one ever really knows whose button actually killed the person… it’s just needlessly complicated and dumb. Not to mention the fact that the legal costs involved in defending appeals and housing someone on death row are much higher than the cost of a life sentence anyway. And that’s leaving aside the statistically significant number of wrongful convictions…
I mean, we shouldn’t have the death penalty. But if we’re going to, it should be by nitrogen hypoxia.
I am split - there shouldn’t be a death penalty, and the horrors of botched executions go a long way toward undermining support for the system. While nitrogen hypoxia would be humane, it also makes the death penalty so much easier to sell. Part of me would rather have it be barbarous to undermine support. Though I can see the state being so incompetent that they end up gassing half of the executioners along with the inmate, even though they’re just putting a mask on the inmate’s face.
The issue is with the specific protocol being used. It’s not made public or documented. It’s almost all though they’re interested in torturing him instead of humanely executing him.
a convicted mercenary who participated in insurance fraud doesnt want to lab rat? that’s fair but he’s going to die one way or the other. not sure why it matters how the process is carried out, though replacing all oxygen with nitrogen in an enclosed space rather straightforward.
Convicted mercenary and experimental execution sounds like the backstory to a 90s comic character.
Why people are so obsessed with finding more and more intricate ways to execute? Hanging or shooting in the head works just fine.
Those are not painless methods and they hearken to a sense of vengeance, not justice. If someone is truly so irredeemable that we cannot re-educate them to learn to be good citizens or at least non-offending citizens, then we should remove them from the ability to cause further harm. But we are not in the business of causing suffering, at least not on paper we’re not. So we should give the person a civilized death with no pain, as causing pain is not justice, it’s vengeance.
Why execute them then? We clearly have no issue incarcerating people for life.
Personally If there’s no chance someone will ever be released, I find that almost more cruel then a painless execution. As long as it’s 100% without a doubt guilty I support this method of execution.
People would choose life in prison because deaths scares them, but spending 25-50 years in a box sounds worse to me than death does. Not only that, they have 25+ years to likely just wait to develop cancer and spend another 1-5 years dying slowly and painfully.
But I’m all in agreement when it comes to reducing the cost. I don’t love the death penalty, I think it should be reserved for absolutely impossible cases, but it should be cheaper.
The death penalty is already about vengeance and not justice. Removing them from society completely is justice for harming society.
Removing them painlessly if they’re not able to be rehabilitated, definitely what I would call justice.
Hanging, shooting, whichever other painful or ‘old world justice’ method, I’m hesitant to call that justice because it causes pain and suffering needlessly. Criminals treat people less than people. People must treat criminals like people, or we’re all criminals.
Why would killing them be more justice than simple removal? Either way they’re out of society.
Plus, if we accept that laws are not 100% fairly and correctly applied, we get the added benefits of not killing the innocent.
Removal being life in prison? I think that’s whay you meant, so let me know if i misread thay.
That’s not what I think justice is because prison is about reform and not punishment. If you’re punishing them, okay, then that’s a whole other topic. But if your intent is to reform, and they’re too old to serve the sentence designed for reform or they’re deemed mentally unfit to be capable of reforming (usually in the case of extremely violent but low intelligent individuals), then the existing prison system we have in the US would be cruel to just cage someone who can’t change. The conditions US prisoners endure, especially when it comes to inmates on death row, is abysmal. Giving them the opportunity to take their own life without pain or suffering is my main “preference”, allowing death row inmates to just sit and rot in those conditions sounds worse than death. Of course, I’d leave that opinion up to the inmates though.
I’m in full agreement that laws are not 100% fairly and correctly applied, so my preference would be to allow painless suicide as “time served” for death row. Stay as long as you think you’re innocent, and hopefully we fix the conditions so they don’t want to take their life regardless of innocence due to the psychological damage they might receive.
Last time a new method of execution was made, lethal injection, it was developed by a veterinarian who vaguely described how it might work and then it was administered by non-physicians because no doctor would ever touch this. I wonder who developed this new method.
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Actually it’s pretty well understood.
The human body reacts to CO2 buildup with a ‘gasping for air’ sensation. Nitrogen however, not at all. The air we breathe is 80% nitrogen 20% oxygen, so we aren’t sensitive to nitrogen at all. Breathing air with little oxygen is something well understood as it can happen to pilots of unpressurized aircraft. Here’s a funny example of what happens when pressurization fails. Once ATC figures out he has hypoxia, they order him to descend to 11,000’ (which is usually the point hypoxia starts to kick in) and he’s fine. But while he’s hypoxic, he happily admits he has no control over his airplane and is totally unbothered by that fact.
There’s a thing called a hypoxia chamber- the oxygen % of the air is reduced (not eliminated) to simulate what it’s like being at high altitude without pressurization. Always funny videos there, grown men with oxygen-starved brains playing with a children’s puzzle trying to put the square block in the round hole.Execution by 100% nitrogen is the most humane death I can think of. The gas is odorless, and as it takes effect the prisoner would experience a euphoric feeling before just falling asleep and dying a few minutes later.
That said, I’m sure they’ll fuck this up somehow- most civilized people have concluded that execution is barbaric and unnecessary, so whoever builds the nitrogen gadget is probably not going to be the sharpest tool in the shed.
And that’s what a botched execution would look like- if you shut off the nitrogen too soon or don’t ensure a high enough nitrogen concentration, the prisoner will be left with brain damage but not dead.
I saw a video, I think on YouTube shorts, explaining how our bodies response when suffocating is from an abundance of CO2 rather than a lack of O2.
Maybe whoever suggested this method saw the same video?
A glib reply would be “What’s the worst that could happen?, they’d die?” but a far worse outcome is that they remain conscious but in constant pain for an unnecessarily long time. I’m personally against execution of any form but if it’s going to be done let’s make sure it’s humane.
well what you describe is how Normal executions go. Doctors won’t do it so it’s done by prison guards with no medical training and is often so disgusting the witnesses need counseling
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(Jacob Geller’s The False Evolution of Execution Methods)
It’s different than you might imagine. There’s a certain unmistakable mix of institutional power, mandate, callousness, and incompetence that makes state execution’s uniquely awful.
My brother in christ, public executions were a thing in a time when the majority was religious.
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I am against capital or even corporal punishment.
But if I were to pick my way of dying, nitrogen hypoxia is the way I would like to go
Nitrogen is the most common thing you breath, almost 80% of air being nitrogen.
You don’t feel like you are being choked, because that feeling does not come from less oxygen, but when other gasses like carbon dioxide is at a too high level. Foreign liquid, or even being unable to expand your lungs. There is no too low oxygen sensor in your body that is used to send pain signals.
You gradually lose your cognitive faculties, including feeling pain or self preservation.
I am against captial or even corporal punishment, even for heinous crimes.
If you are thinking about ending your life, seek help with health care professionals, everyone deserves a chance to have a better life.
All that said, I think nitrogen hypoxia is the most humane way of ending a life. I would even wish that my chicken nuggets got the least painful end to their lives
I’ll take it if he doesn’t want it.
Right? Why aren’t suicide booths a thing yet?
The capitalist owners could make more profit off it, and that’s literally all human civilization values. And bonus, the people the Capitalists and their doting peasant sycophants consider “lazy, socialist commies” would largely opt out, leaving them to count their shillings in peace, unopposed.
Is it about needing a homeless population that can’t (easily) opt out to scare the other peasants into continuing to show up for their purposeless jobs? Or just the last thin fig leaf of the capitalists deluding themselves into believing themselves less than monstrous?
Because being trapped in this labor camp of a civilization isn’t mercy. It’s the opposite of mercy. Not legalizing escape isn’t the same thing as valuing life, and we clearly don’t. It’s the same thing as an anti-abortionist claiming to value human life while opposing social programs to help the newborn and mother.
Capitalists make portable suicide booths called guns! They love them
I was gonna say they could test on me, but I don’t want to support the death penalty.
Unless they’re pedophiles!
To make the same point in a less sarcastic way, it is a problem that just throwing the term pedophile at someone immediately ostracizes them and society is willing to condem them to effective death.
It’s so bad that a jury doesn’t even really need evidence to indict. Because apparently seeing one, potentially censored image is enough to cause PTSD?
I’ve seen people being decapitated without getting PTSD. I’ve seen horrible things from the Holocaust. I don’t think one image is going to cause permanent damage. (I fully believe dealing with this stuff every day for years can be an issue. That’s different.)
We need to drop just a bit of the hysteria.
When I was 11 I saw a whole 40 minute documentary from 1945 about it and I haven’t gotten PTSD from it.
I agree with you when it comes to the ostracizing problem. I would just like to remind you that not everyone is psychologically identical to you. Some (perhaps many) people CAN get PTSD by looking at a picture of a terrible crime.
I don’t think a bunch of people got PTSD from 4chan 2004.
Ah yes, 4chan, full of normal, well-adjusted people
I don’t think willing participants count ;)
I have seen some horrible shit too. Like that girl and her male cousin rapping in a bathroom with a gun, and she winds up accidentally killing her cousin and then killing herself after she realized what she did. Yeah, never going to forget that. Don’t have PTSD from it, but definitely was traumatic.
A while back round where I live a guy was burned to death by a mob of his neighbours because people were saying he was a pedophile. Turned out he had only been taking photos of kids vandalising his garden. Oops.
Link to that news article?
Thanks for sharing, but, at the same time, I really wish it wasn’t true.
Holy fucking shit. It never once occurred to me that lynching was a thing in the modern UK. Mass stabbings? Sure. Getting mugged and beaten by gangs of teens, okay. But straight up lynching? Fuck.
WoO stupid take
Why?
Pedophiles usually don’t want to be pedophiles and won’t act on their desires; they’re just quietly suffering from mental illness and just their existence shouldn’t change someone’s stance on the death penalty.
Yeah, I’m talking about the pedophile who do act on their desires.
Sorry that needs to be spelled out for you.
Glad we can both agree they deserve the death penalty.
I agree that there are some crimes so horrible that the offenders no longer deserve to live. The trouble is that I don’t trust police and the courts to correctly identify the guilty all of the time. Until there’s a system that can prove guilt with 100% accuracy we shouldn’t have a death penalty.
I don’t know much about asphyxiation but it does not sound comfortable. Concerning lethal injection, it’s not certain how much pain the paralyzed body feels as the heart is being stopped – have there been EEG studies?
I would prefer execution by firing squad.
have there been EEG studies?
there have and it’s horrendous.
In any case, displacing oxygen with nitrogen is one of those things that you’d never notice until it was too late. because your body bases it’s breathing off how much air your sucking in, you don’t even start hyper ventilating.
It’s supposed to be very painless. If I remember correctly your body can’t tell the difference between oxygen and nitrogen so you don’t have a feeling of lack of air, just continue breathing normally then fall asleep and expire.
Generally, the build up of CO2 is what triggers pain and panic of asphyxiation. Oxygen displacing gases certainly do cause fast unconsciousness and brain damage. Would seem very likely that nitrogen works well.
There’s plenty of knowledge about the effects of nitrogen from it being a workplace hazard in a lot of places.
One example is anchor chain lockers on ships. That big iron chain that just came out of the salt water wants to turn into iron oxide so it absorbs all the oxygen making the environment extremely nitrogen rich. In several cases people have been climbing down into it and without warning go unconscious. I think one case had three dead at the bottom before the fourth guy comes along with some brains and thinks maybe I shouldn’t go down there.
The human body can only detect a buildup of carbon dioxide in the lungs, not a lack of oxygen. This is why it’s uncomfortable to hold your breath for a long time. If you inhale pure nitrogen while being able to exhale, there is no build up of CO2 and therefore little to no discomfort.
Wikipedia cites a USAF text, saying: “Some individuals experience headache, dizziness, fatigue, nausea and euphoria, and some become unconscious without warning.”
This is why it’s uncomfortable to hold your breath for a long time.
If you want to try it at home, try inhaling the air inside a soda bottle
over holding your breath because they are both co2???
Better yet, try inhaling Nitrous oxide from whipped creme propellant.
You know you live in a third world country if you have discussions about how to kill your citizens. There is no need for the death penalty but a twisted and false sense of justice.
Apparently it’s a hot take: there are people who exist that we would all absolutely be better off were they dead.
This guy was someone who was paid to kill another person for a thousand dollars. This is not just “a citizen” unless you’re saying it makes sense to keep people around in society that will fucking murder someone for less than a months pay.
government shouldn’t be allowed to kill its own people
I never said this is a person that society needs to keep around.
I do not believe that living is a right that can be earned or unearned. It is a right everyone has. If a person is unfit for society they need to be seperated from society. If that means having them in prison for live than that is what we should do. Killing them is done for one purpose mainly: Because it gives some people a sense of justice. This sense of justice however is false as the only justice would be to undo what was done.
Congratulations, the laws of reality disagree with you. When authoritarians are knocking down your door to tear your life apart, remember: you decided to let them live.
When the authoritarians are knocking down your door you’ll think “I wish I had given the government more power to kill people. Only when the government can legally kill people are we safe from tyranny.”
Nobody serving a life sentence is going to be anywhere near my door.
Nice. If someone disagrees with you they are diasgreeing with reality? Sure makes sense. And nobody told me i personally can decide who is going to live. Damn man, now i feel bad about all those executions i could have stopped.
It’s like you didn’t even read what he wrote.
Don’t delude yourself – revolution isn’t a lawful action, regarless of one’s intentions.
That’s what they say, even keeping him locked up for life would be cheaper. Also how do you decide what’s gruesome enough to justify killing people, what about wrongfully convicted people they do exist and they got murdered. There are so many good arguments against and do few if any for the death penalty it’s mind-blowing to me how any more or less democratic society doesn’t abolish it.
TL;DR: No, there are plenty of good reasons why the death penalty should exist. The problem isn’t the penalty, it’s the people pointing it at innocents because it’s harder to prove guilt beyond a shadow of doubt. THAT is what needs reform, not the penalty. Otherwise you’re successfully putting more people into slavery when they just shouldn’t be consuming resources anymore, period.
This person isn’t wrongfully convicted, he’s been fighting his death penalty for years. He quite literally confessed, and his confession drove the man responsible for the hiring (it was through a third party) to kill himself.
Yes yes yes, “but what ifs” are very nice for people that don’t actually want to make hard decisions. The bottom line is bad people exist and should be killed. This man doesn’t deserve rights beyond those afforded to people who are sentenced to death.
The expense of the death penalty is related to the trials that are held, almost always in opposition of the ruling. If you were to compare the actual cost of the penalty itself to the cost of keeping someone in slavery, you would find that the numbers don’t support you.
The reality is you don’t have a problem with the death penalty, you have a problem with the people proposing the death penalty because not enough preparation goes into it. Which is perfectly rational, because if they are not proven beyond a shadow of doubt to be guilty then the death penalty should simply not be on the table.
The problem isn’t the sentence, the problem is people not treating human lives with enough respect when giving the sentence. Both things can be true. Literally point to any fascist/ authoritarian and suddenly the death penality doesn’t seem so bad. No one cried for Bin Laden being obliterated, no one would cry for a convicted hitman being killed.
No one cried for Bin Laden being obliterated, no one would cry for a convicted hitman being killed.
Thats simply not true. I myself would very much rather have seen Bin Laden in Jail (and of course a due process beforehand), likewise Saddam or even Hitler…
Those are some wild statements you make. Yes I have a problem with the penalty bc I think it’s wrong, simple as that. But I live in a country where punishment is fundamentally based on the idea of rehabilitation. And that often even applies for murderers. So I think that’s part of why I’m so opposed to the death penalty.
I doubt we can convince each other from our standpoints. So all I can say is have a great day.
Three counter points:
- Where state sanctioned killing is introduced violent crime and homicide typically rise afterwards. Potentially because society is saying its ok to kill someone if they really deserve it and your sure.
- It is near impossible to be 100% certain of someone’s guilt. Even with confessions. They could be protecting someone or simply not of right mind. If the state makes a mistake it is permanent and is murder in my opinion.
- Pricing has to take into account the legal costs a a printed with being as sure as possible etc. Even then there are cases of wrongful execution.
I have a problem with your ridiculously vague statement of
The bottom line is bad people exist and should be killed
What makes a bad person? That they committed a crime (which crime, how bad is bad), that they show no remorse, that they are incapable of change (were they born evil or a victim of circumstance)?
You only have to look at how quickly decisions of law are changing (roe v wade for better or worse, definitely worse) to realise deciding on life ending ‘justice’ based on a human court of due process (where even confessing can be flawed) is fundamentally flawed.
How does it impact your day to day if we choose to incarcerate them instead?
But also, a little extra compassion in life would do you zero harm.
Here’s the thing though.
I agree 100% that the world is probably better off without this asshole in it.
But I don’t think we should be doing that. For every one of these guys, you’ll have another guy who got railroaded by a crooked prosecutor, or who will later be proven innocent with better DNA testing. There’s just no way to be sure every one is ‘good’, and I’d rather let bad people live than accidentally kill good people.Counterpoint: Given the number of people in government who said government should murder me because of the rainbow pin on my lapel, I don’t want government to have the power to murder anyone even if we all agree they deserve it. What makes you think that this is the one thing the government is competent at?
The government is just fine at murdering people, innocent, guilty, it’s all the same. They’ll even fight to kill people regardless of overwhelming evidence of innocence. Sometimes they have to try a few times to kill the person, but if they murder them in the street, its a great way to get a paid vacation.
But bro, it doesn’t affect me now so why should I worry bro man bro dude?
Dude bro man guy?!?
/s
Even if you’re right, that doesn’t mean we should actually kill them. People are people, they should be treated as such. We can throw them in jail far easier, and to the rest of us, it’s equivalent to them being dead.
I understand you POV, but I disagree.
There are people that are beyond rehabilitation, and life in prison is just a waste of time and resources.
What we should do is try to understand what is making people commit crimes and avoid it before it happens.
People on death row are more expensive than on life sentence. You could have them work without making it slave like but talking about the U.S. prison system in general just makes me want to throw up. Its no wonder that people would argue for killing if they dont view inmates a human beings. I guess there is a special flavor of “humanism” in the U.S. I can tell you the european countries are doing quite well without enslaving and killing their inmates.
European countries dont have shooters or rapists like in the US.
I support giving convicts with death sentences the right to choose the means (within reason). Nitrogen hypoxia is probably more humane than most of the methods we’ve tried, although I personally prefer bringing back the guillotine. If we’re willing to kill a man for justice, we ought be willing to reject childish euphemisms (putting him to sleep) and make a bloody mess of it.
make a bloody mess of it
Personally I’ve been advocating for the “shitload of explosives” method. It doesn’t get much more humane than being blown to a red mist in milliseconds, and the audience would love it.
Medicalized death sentences like the lethal injection seriously creep me out. Even a murderer deserves to face death with dignity, not strapped to a table and injected with poison.
i could never live with myself if i put anyone to death, regardless of how horrific an act they committed.
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It’s not like there hasn’t been a mistrial ever in history and executed an innocent person. Right? Right?
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Well certainly you will be saying that when you are sentenced to death.
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Not every cases involve those.
That’s why apparently the execution squads are told that at least one of them has blank bullets. And why two doctors do the lethal injection procedure simultaneously, but one of them is injecting saline. This way everyone can legitimately think “maybe it wasn’t me who killed them”. I think I read in in “Behave” by Robert M. Sapolsky.
Meanwhile, medieval executioners simply wore a hood so nobody knew who they were.
Yeah but I think my answer was not about “I wouldn’t want anyone to know I killed someone” but more about “I couldn’t live with myself knowing that I killed someone”.
