https://nitter.net/codepink/status/1709591940675637312#m
https://www.codepink.org/arrested_11_activists_arrested_at_bernie_sanders_sit_in_for_peace
Solidarity to CodePink getting the message for diplomacy instead of endless money/arms heaping in the war as always. Can’t habeeb Bernie went from resisting with his full body weight between two cops in his youth, to dolling out zip-ties like friendship bracelets.
My hint that Bernie is a piece of shit actually is when he called freshly accused rapist, current bitter political rival, and childsniffer “my friend Joe Biden” while saying Biden could beat trump
Fuck you bernie, you weak scumbag
lmao cornel west was there
2016 me is in shambles. 2023 me is completely unsurprised.
to :doomer: pipeline
Gonna send this to libs the next time they claim that in America there’s free speech and people don’t get arrested for criticizing politicians.
There’s free speech so long as everyone can ignore what you say without even a moment’s inconvenience
Gotta get into your free speech zone!
That won’t work fyi.
I know, libs are immune to reason.
:parenti:
The better timeline where FDR’s clique won instead of Truman’s and Michael Parenti was the insurgent candidate in the American Social Democrat Party
The timeline where President Wallace didn’t drop the bomb and didn’t start the cold war.
“Well look, Russia invaded Ukraine and I think if they are allowed to get way with that and the United States does not support Ukraine it will simply embolden Russian imperialism and create a never ending crisis in Europe,” Sanders says.
Bernie was always a lib?
It’s noble to want to help your neighbor protect his yard, but when the entire neighborhood around you guys is on fire and you were the one who started it, maybe it’s a good idea to put those out first
In 2015, when asked whether counterterrorism under a Sanders administration would include Special Forces and drone strikes, Sanders replied, “Well, all of that and more.”
History began in 2022. Nothing happened before that. Russia decided to invade because they’re evil orcs. Also imperialism is when the military does stuff.
what do I keep saying???
History repeats itself: first as
, then as
.
I trusted you, you bastard!
TIL we have an Artie Bucco emoji
Our collection is truly a never-ending fountain of expression.
This…this actually made me shed a single tear.
Like i didn’t think I had anything left to break, but to see this man’s heart break in real time, knowing Bernie made this call. God damn.
did really die with that heart attack and whatever bastard they put in place is a stool pigeon.
Also I hope that
got a wake up call to re-evaluate his life choices in whose side he’s working for.
Social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism
why?
Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. There is no ground for assuming that the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of Social-Democracy. There is just as little ground for thinking that Social-Democracy can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. These organisations do not negate, but supplement each other. They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution.
I’m sorry I don’t really understand, how is social democracy dependent on fascism? fascism is anti-socialist but anti-socialist isn’t fascism
extended quote with link to original source material
Some people think that the bourgeoisie adopted “pacifism” and “democracy” not because it was compelled to do so, but voluntarily, of its own free choice, so to speak. And it is assumed that, having defeated the working class in decisive battles (Italy, Germany), the bourgeoisie felt that it was the victor and could now afford to adopt “democracy.” In other words, while the decisive battles were in progress, the bourgeoisie needed a fighting organisation, needed fascism; but now that the proletariat is defeated, the bourgeoisie no longer needs fascism and can afford to use “democracy” instead, as a better method of consolidating its victory. Hence, the conclusion is drawn that, the rule of the bourgeoisie has become consolidated, that the “era of pacifism” will be a prolonged one, and that the revolution in Europe has been pigeonholed.
This assumption is absolutely wrong.
Firstly, it is not true that fascism is only the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie’s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. There is no ground for assuming that the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of Social-Democracy. There is just as little ground for thinking that Social-Democracy can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. These organisations do not negate, but supplement each other. They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution. The bourgeoisie cannot retain power without such a bloc. It would therefore be a mistake to think that “pacifism” signifies the liquidation of fascism. In the present situation, “pacifism” is the strengthening of fascism with its moderate, Social-Democratic wing pushed into the forefront.
Secondly, it is not true that the decisive battles have already been fought, that the proletariat was defeated in these battles, and that bourgeois rule has been consolidated as a consequence. There have been no decisive battles as yet, if only for the reason that there have not been any mass, genuinely Bolshevik parties, capable of leading the proletariat to dictatorship. Without such parties, decisive battles for dictatorship are impossible under the conditions of imperialism. The decisive battles in the West still lie ahead. There have been only the first serious attacks, which were repulsed by the bourgeoisie; the first serious trial of strength, which showed that the proletariat is not yet strong enough to overthrow the bourgeoisie, but that the bourgeoisie is already unable to discount the proletariat. And precisely because the bourgeoisie is already unable to force the working class to its knees, it was compelled to renounce frontal attacks, to make a detour, to agree to a compromise, to resort to “democratic pacifism.”
Lastly, it is also not true that “pacifism” is a sign of the strength and not of the weakness of the bourgeoisie, that “pacifism” should result in consolidating the power of the bourgeoisie and in postponing the revolution for an indefinite period. Present-day pacifism signifies the advent to power, direct or indirect, of the parties of the Second International. But what does the advent to power of the parties of the Second International mean? It means their inevitable self-exposure as lackeys of imperialism, as traitors to the proletariat, for the governmental activity of these parties can have only one result: their political bankruptcy, the growth of contradictions within these parties, their disintegration, their decay. But the disintegration of these parties will inevitably lead to the disintegration of the rule of the bourgeoisie, for the parties of the Second International are props of imperialism. Would the bourgeoisie have undertaken this risky experiment with pacifism if it had not been compelled to do so; would it have done so of its own free will? Of course, not! This is the second time that the bourgeoisie is undertaking the experiment with pacifism since the end of the imperialist war. The first experiment was made immediately after the war, when it seemed that revolution was knocking at the door. The second experiment is being undertaken now, after Poincaré’s and Curzon’s risky experiments. Who would dare deny that imperialism will have to pay dearly for this swinging of the bourgeoisie from pacifism to rabid imperialism and back again, that this is pushing vast masses of workers out of their habitual philistine rut, that it is drawing the most backward sections of the proletariat into politics and is helping to revolutionise them? Of course, “democratic pacifism” is not yet the Kerensky regime, for the Kerensky regime implies dual power, the collapse of bourgeois power and the coming into being of the foundations of proletarian power. But, there can scarcely be any doubt that pacifism signifies the immense awakening of the masses, the fact that the masses are being drawn into politics; that pacifism is shaking bourgeois rule and preparing the ground for revolutionary upheavals. And precisely for this reason pacifism is bound to lead not to the strengthening, but to the weakening of bourgeois rule, not to the postponement of the revolution for an indefinite period, but to its acceleration.
It does not, of course, follow that pacifism is not a serious danger to the revolution. Pacifism serves to sap the foundations of bourgeois rule, it is creating favourable conditions for the revolution; but it can have these results only against the will of the “pacifists” and “democrats” themselves, only if the Communist Parties vigorously expose the imperialist and counter-revolutionary nature of the pacifist-democratic rule of Herriot and MacDonald. As for what the pacifists and democrats want, as for the policy of the imperialists, they have only one aim in resorting to pacifism: to dupe the masses with high-sounding phrases about peace in order to prepare for a new war; to dazzle the masses with the brilliance of “democracy” in order to consolidate the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie; to stun the masses with clamour about the “sovereign” rights of nations and states in order the more successfully to prepare for intervention in China, for slaughter in Afghanistan and in the Sudan, for the dismemberment of Persia; to fool the masses with highfaluting talk about “friendly” relations with the Soviet Union, about various “treaties” with the Soviet government, in order to establish still closer relations with the counter-revolutionary conspirators who have been kicked out of Russia, with the aim of bandit operations in Byelorussia, the Ukraine and Georgia. The bourgeoisie needs pacifism as a camouflage. This camouflage constitutes the chief danger of pacifism. Whether the bourgeoisie will succeed in its aim of fooling the people depends upon the vigour with which the Communist Parties in the West and in the East expose the bourgeoisie, upon their ability to tear the mask from the imperialists in pacifist clothing. There is no doubt that events and practice will work in favour of the Communists in this respect by exposing the discrepancy between the pacifist words and the imperialist deeds of the democratic servitors of capital. It is the duty of the Communists to keep pace with events and ruthlessly to expose every step, every act of service to imperialism and betrayal of the proletariat committed by the parties of the Second International.
from Concerning the International Situation (1924) by J.V. Stalin
He’s saying that Social Democracy and Fascism form the left and right fists of the bourgeois imperialist states. They don’t oppose each other from the perspective of those outside the empire and facing it’s attacks, they support and regulate each other. Without Social Democracy regulating and sustaining capitalism and mitigating its crises the economic system would collapse and internal crisis would dominate and the empire would be unable to sustain outward pressure. Without Fascism, a social democratic Liberal state would transition into socialism and go too far - so it keeps fascism around to keep the socialists in check. Fascism is the necessary violence of the capitalist state, even a social democratic state, to sustain itself and enforce the limits of democracy (ie, to not allow the poor to vote away the wealth of the rich. There must be a hardline protection against that).
From the perspective of those outside of “Social Democratic Liberal Democracies” facing their imperialism, all they are seeing is fascism being imported into their country and invasions and meddling from fascist attacks. The social democrats keep things stable at home so that the fascist imperialists can extract value from the colonies and beat down any leftists inside the core. The fascists brutally destroy communists and leftists on behalf of capital, while being fed and clothed by the social democrats. It’s a symbiotic marriage.
huh… explained like that what he’s saying sort of makes sense.
i never thought I’d actually agree with this, I was a socdem since like… a month or two ago before I joined this site
thank you
It’s worth noting this is only really true for imperialist nations and not for former colonies or periphery states. Social Democracy have their limits and issues, but they can often be genuine improvements in nations like Venezuela or Bolivia when they actually serve an anti-imperialist function (uniting the nation to kick out compradors and foreign capitalists and colonizers). Contrast this with Boric, who is a soc dem sell-out disconnected from the working class entirely who acts as a comprador - so they’re not always good but have to be evaluated case-by-case basis.
man, I remember celebrating so much with my chilean friend when boric got elected
then the new constitution failed and we’ve just gotten more cynical… ; ;
Stalin is saying that social democracy is the response of the capitalists to a stronger proletariat, and the end outcome of social democracy remains the same as fascism - capitalists remain in power - and will withdraw the treats as soon as the revolutionary desires of the masses have settled down.
Stalin is writing in the interwar period before fascism has really demonstrated certain aspects that we associate with fascism today
to add something that helped me with this
social democracy is the carrot, fascism is the stick, end goal is to smother revolutionary fervor
but that is saying “social democracy in terms of the position of the capitalists results in the same outcomes as fascism” not “social democracy is fascism”, was the quote maybe about how they were supposed to treat the social democrats rather than an actual judgement of them?
Social Democrats are the moderate wing of fascism. Fascists are the extreme wing of fascism. That’s his point. They are symbiotic twins, two cogs in a machine that work in tandem
deleted by creator
no more half measures walter
Nothing is certain in life except death, taxes, and that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood.
this quote should replace “in god we trust” on the us dollar
Dollars should just be replaced with scraps of paper with this quote scrawled on them
Never thought I’d go from disappointment and dismissal to outright contempt. What a piece of shit. I donated like $200 to his fucking campaign. I could have spent that on weed.
I volunteered my time. I’m not even American. I feel like such a dupe.
not even American
You came out ahead comrade
Way to go lefties. Instead of focussing on literal nazis sitting in parliaments, lets go protest one of the only credible democratic socialists in the country. Your dogmatism has made you so clever! Instead of forming alliances to achieve majorities, lets intensify the fighting within the left political spectrum… This will surely fend of the nazis from grabbing power.
What a bunch of morons… Oh no, I forgot: Everybody is your enemy, and basically everybody is a nazi. And you’re always right… So that protest is well justified, hahahaha.
Shut your stupid ass up
Person who will side with nazis at first opportunity accuses only people who historically always resisted nazis of seeing nazis everywhere, example #1488
I get it though. It’s a normal reaction from a coward to see principles and confuse it with dogma.
And the nazis I’m siding with are the Ukrainians? Laughable.
Also why do you confuse yourself with the people who historically never sided with the nazis? You might think to share some beliefs with these historical figures. But you’re just a bigmouthed keyboard warrior who most likely never had to confront the choice between your life and your ideals.
Plenty of us actually confront that choice every day, yes. Turns out, when you stop projecting, that not everyone has the same comfortable life, and you don’t need to be alive during WW2 to know if you’ll turn out to be a nazi supporter or not.
For one, providing cover and whitewashing nazis because they’re on your side like you do here, is a pretty good tell you earn for the uniform.
And the nazis I’m siding with are the Ukrainians? Laughable.
The Ukrainians are Nazis?!?!? How preposterous, just ridiculous!
I’m more privileged than a lot of people here and I decided to stop going to the food bank near my house because it’s run by a fascist. Does that count? Or do my ideals have to be tested at gunpoint?
democratic socialists
Lmao he’s a socdem not a socialist get a grip
. Socialists supported him as a compromise during the previous election. That compromise was resoundingly rejected by the ruling class and will not be coming back. There was absolutely no reason for socialists to continue supporting him after that occurred and there’s certainly no reason to do so currently.
American liberals are seriously the most politically illiterate people in the world.
There was absolutely no reason for socialists to continue supporting him after that occurred
Especially after he enthusiastically endorsed Joe “Dixiecrat friends-with-Strom-Thurmond-and-Jesse-Helms Crime-Bill-writing make-discharging-student-loans-in-bankruptcy-illegal” Biden.
If Sanders had the slightest personal convictions anymore, he’d have gone out in a blaze of glory after the 2020 primaries. He had a safe comfortable retirement on the horizon. He could have extremely publicly called out all his colleagues for the shady shit they’ve pulled. But no, he wanted to hang on in politics, so he made nice with the Democrats. He’s a pale shadow of the good man he once was. Now he’s just a sheepdog for the DNC, herding well-meaning but gullible soft-leftists into voting Democrat.
You’re right. We should give up any and all demands for the sake of forming alliances. Having beliefs is for losers. If we completely capitulate and start supporting capitalism, we can even form an alliance with everyone in DC!
And that belief is pacifism? That’s of course a legitimate opinion to hold. But mine is different. The US has committed their fair share of atrocities over the decades. But I live in Germany. And if it weren’t for the US involvment in WW2, I might be living in a fascist shithole today. So… is that comparable to the situation in Ukraine? Imo it is to a certain degree. Is war horrible? Of course, we should never fight them. But if someone wages war, ignoring all means of diplomacy because they think they’ll profit from it, and your only option to end the war immediately is surrendering to maximalist demands… with the expectation that this will again continue in some years with new demands… What you gonna do?
And if it weren’t for the US involvment in WW2, I might be living in a fascist shithole today
Correction, if it wasn’t for Soviet involvement, the Germans smashed their military capacity against the Red Army, not the Americans who were lucky to break out of Normandy thanks to the Reds holding down and destroying millions of German soldiers, you Germans love to misread your own history
So… is that comparable to the situation in Ukraine?
There’s a comparison in that there are nazis in Ukraine who want to cleanse the Donbass and Crimea of Russian speakers, of course that basic fact about this nine year old conflict undermines the propaganda peddled by the same con artists who claimed Saddam had nukes
But again, Euros like you love misreading history so all this probably flew over your head
Good god. How nice of you to clear me up about the history of my own country hahaha. I’m sure the invasion in Normandy was basically a stroll in the park for the Americans. And the Eastern Germans they were so glad about their “liberation” that the Soviet govt had to build a wall to keep people from running away from this GLORIOUS “democratic” state. Even shot people who wanted to exercise their right to leave.
But lets leave it at that. There’s no sense in discussing with someone who thinks they are all-knowing keepers of the truth without even knowing the definition of doubt.
Germans don’t get to talk about their own WW2 history with any authority, you get to sit down and listen because it was your grandparents that fucked up and it was them that were re-installed back into power and it was them that determined your cultural and educational upbringing. You are the least qualified people on Earth to talk about fascism or German history with any arrogance. You should feel a lot more shame, and do a lot more listening to the communists.
quick q, who do you think was responsible for the Nordstream attack?
And the Eastern Germans they were so glad about their “liberation” that the Soviet govt had to build a wall to keep people from running away from this GLORIOUS “democratic” state. Even shot people who wanted to exercise their right to leave.
140 people in total were killed trying to cross from East to West Germany. Not 140 million. Not 140 thousand. 140, over a 30 year period. 4-5 people per year. Obama’s drone strikes killed at least 3800 people, a tenth of which were civilians even under Obama’s maximalist definition, over 8 years. Which historical events do people mention more when searching for evidence of brutality by governments - Obama’s drone strikes, or the Berlin Wall? Thousands die in the Mediterranean Sea trying to cross it. Israel’s crimes in Palestine dwarf the crimes of the Berlin Wall. Why are European governments not derided as authoritarian hellscapes like the GDR was? Why is Israel not a pariah state for their totalitarianism?
Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. “The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there,” say 49 percent of those polled. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: “The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today.”
I know about these opinions, especially since I’m living in the East. Also I genuinely respect them. But of course there are reasons for this: The people who wouldn’t voice that opinion have been long gone. Either fled before 89 or moved to Western Germany in the years after, as millions of young Eastern Germans have done. And those who stayed were most likely those living on the countryside where influence of the government was smaller and the oppression less notable. But of course the GDR was not hell on earth and some people had the chance to enjoy life every now and then.
Still… Even if not many were shot: Many more were interrogated and tortured in Stasi jail. And knowing that anyone, even your closest relatives, could be spying on you… Just because you didn’t conform to the reason of state. That must’ve been horrible. It’s not like people fled the country without reason.
And knowing that anyone, even your closest relatives, could be spying on you… Just because you didn’t conform to the reason of state. That must’ve been horrible.
Eagerly awaiting your essay discussing the authoritarian and orwellian treatment that communists received from the United States government.
And the Eastern Germans they were so glad about their “liberation” that the Soviet govt had to build a wall to keep people from running away from this GLORIOUS “democratic” state. Even shot people who wanted to exercise their right to leave.
For someone who’s German, you seem to be unaware of the basic fact that the East and West German border was well outside Berlin, and that the Berlin Wall was a physical border encircling West Berlin, given West Berlin was part of a hostile nation at the time.
Hard borders exist between nations. Try running the border between Pakistan and India and you’ll also get shot, because surprise surprise, when there’s tension between nations, there tends to be increased tension at the border, too.
Fucking braindead.
Instead of lashing out at me for informing you about basic facts maybe you should brush up on your history
Or you could continue glorifying your own ignorance and regurgitating pop culture propaganda you picked up as a child
Don’t be mad that I’m lashing out a bit. At least you’re saying clearly that I’m just falling for propaganda, not being able to think critically in your opinion. But I could say the exact same thing about you. Imo it’s ignorance to lecture someone about the history of their own country as if that person had never informed themselves or reflected on that history. I didn’t want to diminish the role of the Red Army in defeating the nazis, of course they had insane losses and contributed significantly to the victory over nazism. However I don’t think that the Americans taking part in it did only play a minor part. Both sides working together was necessary to achieve this. And I don’t think it makes any sense to argue about who contributed the most. Also completely besides the point because my argument was about pacifism. And neither the Russians nor the Americans defeated the nazis without weapons.
it’s ignorance to lecture someone about the history of their own country
As an American, I can tell you most Americans need a decades worth of lectures on our own history because we are thoroughly propagandized to believe anything but.
Unless it’s a North Korean or Chinese citizen speaking positively about their own country, then you can lecture them about their own country’s history
Ever wonder why it took Americans until 1944 to land in France?
To be marginally fair to Roosevelt, he was swayed by Churchill’s proposal to go for Sicily first to stop the Soviets potentially taking all of Eastern Europe.
To also be “fair” to Roosevelt, he said this:
“[t]he number of Jews engaged in the practice of the professions (law, medicine, etc.) should be definitely limited to the percentage that the Jewish population in North Africa bears to the whole of the North African population… [T]his plan would further eliminate the specific and understandable complaints which the Germans bore towards the Jews in Germany, namely, that while they represented a small part of the population, over 50 percent of the lawyers, doctors, schoolteachers, college professors, etc., in Germany were Jews.”
oh look, a german doing soft nazi apologia.
how unsurprising.
That’s what I came here for. I like the hexbear shitposting attitude :D
Just today I took the rare opportunity to dive into your echo chamber and have some debates. I hope y’all are not too triggered now. Don’t take all the things I said too seriously. In the end I’m not 100% sure what the best course of action regarding Ukraine would be. But you certainly are, so having such discussions in a nuanced way really becomes difficult. Enjoyed it nevertheless so far.
If it was an echo chamber you wouldn’t be allowed to come in here and get smacked around for our amusement. Now finish your homework, it’s almost bed time.
That’s what I came here for. I like the hexbear shitposting attitude :D Just today I took the rare opportunity to dive into your echo chamber and have some debates.
if you’re going to give us your fake unbothered attitude then please go back to reddit. it’s unhealthy to pretend to have ironic detachment from your worldview, as if this is actually a fun debate, while actually feeling troubled and challenged by people who don’t conform to the liberal worldview. you’re trying to assert - and we see through - that you imagine us to be some uncontacted tribe which you are visiting as a redditor missionary or anthropologist, writing “hmm, a fascinating shitposting attitude in this society! I shall report this to the civilized internet!” in your journal, thus automatically placing any and all of our views in the “uncivilized” category for automatic discarding.
having this detachment feels much psychologically safer than having concrete, heartfelt beliefs that you have to defend, but leaves you confused, miserable, and directionless about the world and how to solve problems. I know this because I was in your position once upon a time when I was a young liberal. you are, in three words, “totally not owned.”; in another three, “actually having fun.” I have another three words for you.
I hope y’all are not too triggered now
you’re still doing “triggered” stuff? my god. I’ll help you fix your time machine so you can go back to 2016
lmao, how far up your own ass are you? You really think this sanctimonious drivel is the appropriate way to respond to anything anyone here has told you?
This isn’t reddit motherfucker, keep that debate bro bullshit outta here
I assume you could agree that Americas invasion of Iraq was unjustified and illegal, yes? Now ask yourself if China had heralded Saddam Hussein as a heroic oppositional figure determined to fight to the last man and provided him with an endless supply of modern weaponry and more loans than his country could repay in generations, would you have supported it? Would it have altered the outcome aside from leading to millions more dead?
I agree that the invasion of Iraq was illegal and unjustified just as the invasion of Ukraine was, and it set a terrible precedent. If China would’ve been in the position to credibly fend off the invasion at that time (before it even started!) that would’ve been a great thing. Now I would say the same about Ukraine but the West didn’t take the threat seriously enough back then.
A difference in outcome is imo that Iraq was a dictatorship to start with. When I talk to Ukrainian refugees now living here they tell me that they want to preserve the political freedoms they gained after the Maidan revolution. They don’t want to become a puppet state similar to Belarus and many of them are determined to fight for that. Ukraine surely is far from a perfect democracy and it has it’s share of nazis as all societies have. But who am I to tell the Ukrainians to just let it be, accept their defeat and flee while they still can? But the war is a terrible meat grinder and it should ne stopped ASAP. I wish for honest negotiations and that might even include some tough to swallow compromises for the Ukrainian side. But what’s more important is that there needs to be a new security architecture that prevents future wars and works for all sides. The Ukrainians have been let down by all sides in the past as neither country from the West, nor Russia, who all guaranteed Ukraines security in treatys have met their obligations.
When I talk to Ukrainian refugees now living here they tell me that they want to preserve the political freedoms they gained after the Maidan revolution
Ukrainians didn’t gain political freedoms after the coup, a third of the country which are Russian speakers literally lost political freedoms, hence the overwhelming Crimean vote for independence and the beginning of the Civil War in Donbass, whoever you’re “talking” to is a fascist who’s fully comfortable cleansing Ukraine of Russian speakers or they’re delusional liberals who’ve closed their eyes and ears for the last nine years
But who am I to tell the Ukrainians to just let it be, accept their defeat and flee while they still can?
And who are you to tell the people of Donbass and Crimea they should lay down their arms and accept whatever fate Ukrainian nazis have in store for them?
What ‘political freedoms’ did they gain? Specifically what freedoms did those of the Donbass gain? The right to no longer teach their native language? The right to be burned in their trade house? The right to be have artillery lobbed at their houses?
Belarus is not a ‘puppet’ state, it has more dictation around it’s own policies than Ukraine does post-Maidan, and isn’t actively selling all of it’s assets to Russian corporations. Just because the Ukrainians you talk to are politically illiterate and filled with Western propoganda doesn’t mean they are correct. Ukraine lost political freedom after Maidan because the game was specifically playing Russia off of the West for the benefit of the Ukrainian political elite. Post-Maidan it was still playing Russian interests off of Western interests, but now actively ignoring Russian redline policy and basic ethnic constitutional rights, a recipe for disaster and constant civil war. With the full-scale war now, it is totally capitulated towards Western demands, literally killing their own people in insane suicide drives, and selling off all fungible assets to the West.
Now, none of this was for the ‘good of the Ukrainian people’, either pre or post-Maidan, the game was always for the benefit of a small number of Ukrainians, but I don’t see that changing anytime soon, and in fact, continuing to get worse, particularly as Ukriane continues to adopt privatization policies (policies first used to describe literal german Nazi policies) throughout their country. Liberal Ukrainians will not recognize the country they return to.
If we’re already in illusionary politics land, here’s my take on Donbass and Crimea. I don’t care about their independence referendums. There’s even a secessionist movement in Bavaria, demanding independence from Germany. Doesn’t mean that any prick who thinks they deserve their own country should get one. How did the russians even end up there, if not by imperalist soviet policies which btw led to the deportation and death of millions who lived there before, e.g. Crimean Tatars. So Crimea belongs to the Tatars, right? Or no: Lets go back further. It belongs to the Greek who settled there before the Tatars! It’s not like the Russians in Ukraine are some fucking indigenuous tribe whose customs and rituals deserve to be world heritage. While they should be treated with the same dignity as all citizens of Ukraine it’s not like having a common language for teaching has anything to do with violating “ethnic constitutional rights”.
In the end, the big majority of people in the Donbass would probably have preferred not to be occupied by unmarked troops sneaking into their homeland and afterwards being governed by idiotic strongmen who draft them for a war they never wanted.
They ended up there because they fought and died against the fucking Nazis you historically illiterate ingrate. They migrated there after the Nazis had killed millions of Ukrainians, people who fought against the very Nazis and Banderite fascists that Ukriane now celebrates as ‘national heros’. ‘Imperialist soviet policy’, Ukriane was the breadbasket of the USSR, a technological powerhouse where the prime computer and cultural development of the USSR occured. An opportunity wasted by their corrupt political elite, a different elite than what is in charge now. Some fucking imperialism that is.
It literally is, oblasts have had long-standing right to teach their native languages, a right that was violated by the government almost immediately post Maidan, regardless of heritage or not. I would rather have had them be independent republics, but the likelihood of that is impossible under modern sovereign state politics.
You haven’t watched a single piece of documentary on the post-Maidan Donbass, or even Ukrainian history at all, you don’t know anything about what you are talking about.
I don’t care about their independence referendums. There’s even a secessionist movement in Bavaria, demanding independence from Germany. Doesn’t mean that any prick who thinks they deserve their own country should get one.
What even is the point you’re trying to make here? All independence movements are the same? That if there is a different independence movement that you don’t support in completely different circumstances then that means not supporting autonomy for people in the Donbass is reasonable because you are able to draw a thin veneer of logical consistency through completely superficial comparisons?
If your national government gets undemocratically overthrown in a coup and then starts implementing policies to strip away rights in your region of the country based on removing your ability to participate in public life and suppressing access to political representation and economic/social participation with tactics such as making it unnecessarily difficult to participate in society using your native language, then that seems like fantastic justification to want independence and autonomy. Why would you need to draw comparisons to other secessionist movements based on little more than the superficial similarity that it is also a secessionist movement?
How did the russians even end up there
Oh, it’s because your actual argument is that the people being affected are acceptable targets for racial/ethnic discrimination, and that they deserve to be relegated to their appropriate status as second class citizens without meaningful political representation, or better yet expelled from their homes so that the pure and righteous Ukrainian nationalists can reclaim their nation. But that’s a less palatable argument, so you had to preface it with some bullshit before you slid that in there.
Enjoy paying through the nose for heat this winter, you propagandized fool.
I don’t care about their independence referendums. There’s even a secessionist movement in Bavaria, demanding independence from Germany. Doesn’t mean that any prick who thinks they deserve their own country should get one.
And yet I guarantee you were full in on the Free Hong Kong bullshit a few years ago lmao, fuck outta here.
But what’s more important is that there needs to be a new security architecture that prevents future wars and works for all sides.
Perhaps a federal structure that maintains Ukranian sovereignty while ensuring Ukranian states have sufficient autonomy to make decisions about things like what languages are taught?
As in, what was proposed in the Minsk agreements. And yet:
Angela Merkel said in 2022 that the agreement had been “an attempt to give Ukraine time” and that Ukraine used it to strengthen its armed forces.
love it when someone pulls out their “spoke to refugee” card as if it means anything by itself. I have also spoken with refugees including a man who barely managed to escape from Azov controlled Mariupol early in the war and had many choice words about the current regime and the far-right groups in the military. Curious how refugees with his perspective on Ukraine and the war is never elevated in the west, but we do find time to applaud an SS member on a Ukraine propaganda tour.
if it weren’t for the US involvment in WW2, I might be living in a fascist shithole today.
Thank the Russians, not the Americans. It was American money that helped install Hitler by the way, and the Nazis were directly inspired by American “manifest destiny” (ie land theft and genocide) to do their Eastward cleansing. You are victim of propaganda that has completely re-written history