Most of the time it’s Misogyny. Either their own misogyny or the misogyny of others having similar red flags to what they put out.
Either that or they just haven’t met a person that gels with them.
Actually I think a huge factor these days is everyone is too tired and depressed to want to bother with a love life. I don’t think people realize just how fucking done with romance most women are. It takes a lot of effort, and capitalism and the hopelessness of the future has sucked the life out of everyone (regardless of gender come to think of it).
As for my self, I’m too tired to bother with romance, and I’ve witnessed so many friends and family have their lives ruined by abusive relationships that I can’t see myself trusting someone unless I was 100% compatible with them.
There are so, so many different reasons someone, regardless of gender, could have trouble connecting with others intimately, and I think it’s genuinely difficult to tell why from both the outside and the inside of the problem. From my limited vantage point though, I think I can identify 3 obvious, broad categories of barrier to people:
First, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that there are not many places to try to pick someone up. Under the old social codes, men could be expected to court women almost anywhere, and women were expected to sit and be pretty if that’s what they wanted. This situation sucked absolute ass, especially for women. The question of what, exactly, ought to replace it has not been satisfactorily answered, and the solution the free market gave us, dating apps, is actively hostile to users of all genders. Venues like bars, social clubs, parties, are all imperfect at best. For a while it used to be normal to try to play matchmaker with your friends, and personally I think we should bring that one back.
Second, dating is scary, and the vulnerability of approaching a stranger can be so overwhelming that it scares people off from actually trying. It’s pretty obvious in retrospect, but this is what is happening to people who never ask anyone out yet are convinced no one wants them. Man, woman, or wiley jackal, you gotta accept that this fear is universal, and you only help yourself by overcoming it.
Third, the preferred explanation of the “incel,” is that some people are disadvantaged in the “sexual marketplace.” I’m not convinced this is either universal, or caused by minute difference in skeletal structure, but certain features, including weight, disability, race and height, do present real, but not insurmountable barriers to love. Certain other things like hygiene, grooming, fashion, and conversational ability are just as damaging, but can be improved upon with time and effort. Conversational and interpersonal skills especially are a problem for a lot of people we find on the internet. No matter how autistic you are, I believe this is something that can be improved with practice and experience in a variety of situations both romantic and friendly.
but certain features, including weight, disability, race and height, do present real, but not insurmountable barriers to love.
Yeah this is what a lot on the left ignore, because it’s still totally acceptable to have “preferences” when it comes to dating (i.e. “I just happen to NOT PREFER black guys” etc). And it sucks because not dealing with it leads these men down the right-wing path (see the skit in the timestamp here and watch for maybe 5 min): https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10?si=M3ejqGsBt8HOBIkG&t=958. And contrary to popular belief, many incels are actually not white.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Gently pushing back on this.
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I see you’ve posted this video a couple times in this thread, and I’ve actually seen this skit linked in a previous iteration of this particular discussion on Hexbear some weeks back. This is a regular discussion topic, probably because hexbears have weird political beliefs and posters don’t get laid or whatever. It’s definitely not ignored.
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I don’t think it’s acceptable to have these kinds of preferences. If one of my lib friends were to say “I just happen to not prefer black guys” at a cocktail night, they would get a table of raised eyebrows. From a leftist friend I have heard good thoughts about sexual preferences: although you might find yourself attracted to certain kinds of people, you can recognize how that is informed by racist, cisnormative, fatphobic, etc. social influences, and because attraction is mutable (as anyone in an LTR knows) you do kinda have a responsibility to try and change that. Women skew left compared to men. So among most women, such preferences are a dirty secret if they even have them.
and I’ve actually seen this skit linked in a previous iteration of this particular discussion on Hexbear some weeks back.
It was probably me that posted it: https://hexbear.net/post/613122. That thread got basically crickets as engagement compared to other threads. I’ve also referenced that thread in other threads. So as far as I know, apart from me very few seem to actually give a shit about this issue.
It’s definitely not ignored.
I kinda disagree. This thread is an oddity when usually threads barely reach 25 comments. Whereas if I were to post a thread that asked “is it socialist to sit down while peeing?” I’m guessing it might get 300+ comments. It’s not just male loneliness threads, but threads that ask what to actually do with regards to society, revolution, etc. Those threads might barely reach 50 comments while threads about pig poop balls get like hundreds of comments. It just makes me realize that very few on hexbear are actually serious about anything. They just have strong political beliefs but nothing real to back them up. The very definition of “online left,” so I guess I’m really not doing anything more here than just circlejerking I guess…
So among most women, such preferences are a dirty secret if they even have them.
It’s just frustrating to see someone who claims to think black lives matter, stop asian hate, etc. only end up dating run of the mill white guys and be completely oblivious about it… smh
If one of my lib friends were to say “I just happen to not prefer black guys” at a cocktail night, they would get a table of raised eyebrows.
That’s the thing, they would never say it, but their actions would speak louder than 1000 sirens, e.g. their actual dating history and who they “just happen” to end up with.
Meta level: I hate these reddit type comments where each person picks out a number of things in the previous response and goes through them one-by-one.
Your top-level post isn’t the one I am thinking of, it was a comment in a big struggle session. Hexbear talks about this sphere of problems quite often; a dating post gets around a hundred upvotes and comments at least once a week (1 2 3 4 etc). Since Hexbears are Chapo emigres and Chapo posters were selected from Reddit demographic, there’s a lot of nerdy young men here who have opinions about modern dating. I’m one of them.
Yes, there are lots of racist liberals. That sucks but it shouldn’t be a surprise to any kind of leftist. Do note though, that not every person with a history of dating a certain kind of person is doing so because of (un)conscious racial biases. Many people live, study, and work in segregated places because of structural causes. Many people date classmates, neighbors, and coworkers, who are coming from these unfortunately pre-filtered pools. Your friend who has gone on a hundred Tinder dates but never with a black guy? Probably racist. Your friend who dated a high school sweetheart and married her college boyfriend? Not enough evidence. This social bubble filtering is not just racial but along class, politlcal, etc. lines and has implications for political organizing.
They just have strong political beliefs but nothing real to back them up
I was confused by this and assumed you were trying to say that hexbears aren’t doing praxis. I think you are trying to accuse hexbears of not having a coherent political theory, so rather than arriving at political beliefs like anti-Zionism from first principles they’re just kind of doing what’s popular? If I’m understanding this correctly you’re quite wrong. If Marx reincarnated was browsing this board he still might not give a shit about lonely American men. As I pointed out earlier, factually posters here do care about lonely men (probably since many of them are lonely men), but it’s certainly possible for people to have serious, coherent political belief systems that just do not prioritize the issue. For instance,
- A third-worldist might argue that first-world workers, who materially benefit from superprofits, have no revolutionary potential. It’s more important to focus on aiding organized workers in the imperial periphery.
- A feminist might argue that sexism primarily benefits bourgeois men but also provides significant benefits to all men. Men’s loneliness is an unfortunate byproduct of male oppression of women, but even this will not convince men to give up sexism en masse because they materially benefit from sexism. Women’s liberation will ultimately come from women; it’s better to organize women rather than spend time on the ultimately dead-end effort to get men to betray sexism.
As I pointed out earlier, factually posters here do care about lonely men
Yeah I’m just not buying it, especially since there was a sticked post (above all other posts, for the better part of TWO WHOLE DAYS) about the Bell Hooks book and it only received 35 comments: https://hexbear.net/post/1147813?scrollToComments=false. For comparison, my post about raking leaves had 28 comments: https://hexbear.net/post/1123921. And a post about herbal cigarettes gets 17 comments.
So yeah, when people say “bUt ThE lEfT dOeS cArE aBoUt LoNeLy MeN!!!” I feel like I’m being gaslighted by like an entire galaxy worth of gaslights… At this point if the right starts recruiting legions of lonely men and they become fascists, then what else can I say except “I told you so.” That’s on the left for failing to engage with them in a real, meaningful way instead of just telling them “READ BELL HOOKS!” Like bro this is 2023, if you wanna engage someone you can’t just tell them to read a book, it’s almost insulting and sounds very elitist. You gotta make youtube videos, tiktoks, etc. Make it short but impactful, as well as engaging. If they want to learn more then they’ll start reading “deeper” stuff.
so you have two objections:
- the left doesn’t care about lonely men because there weren’t enough comments on the Will to Change reading group post
- the left isn’t engaging with lonely men because telling them to read Bell Hooks is not good outreach
2: Hexbear dot net is obviously not an effective way for leftists to reach out to general population. This is an internal leftist forum, it’s not Youtube Shorts showing up in people’s feeds. Federation brings some confused liberals and conservatives in, but most users are communist. When people advocate here they are trying to get other leftists to learn more or develop politically. For instance I read Feinberg’s Trans Liberation after adding it to my list; I already supported the trans struggle but it gave me some understanding of its historical development. I forget if it there was a reading group for it or if I saw it on the trans subreddit sidebar, but it was on my list for maybe a year before I got to it.
1: The Bell Hooks sticky seems like a reasonable amount of engagement for a book club to me (and it demonstrates organizational buy-in via sticky, and general interest via upvote count). Even people who are interested in the topic may not have the time to read a book right then. Every one of those commenters read the book or (/u/moondog) was committing to do so. Bigger barrier to entry than a PBS article on raking leaves, no? I am attempting to join Socialist Alternative, which is a cadre organization, and one of their commitments is doing some reading to show up once a week for political discussion and development. If I join that’ll certainly be a big deal for me. Working people are busy.
I’ll be frank with you: if you want the normal internet debate goal of convincing others and developing the discourse, bumping month-old posts won’t do it. I don’t expect (or particularly care to) change your individual mind, and you’re not changing mine. So let’s cut it here. I think it’s good that you’re agitating to solve what you see as deficiencies in the left movement instead of just accepting them. Perhaps the next step is to get some people together who are interested in developing solutions?
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Bone pressing
looking this up brought me to the funniest comment i have ever fucking seen
spoiler
Women’s Preferences for Penis Size: A New Research Method Using Selection among 3D Models
Your 3D models obviously represent visible (non bone-pressed) penises. In all of the acceptable studies on erect penis length, the measurements are bone-pressed, which include the pubic fat pad that averages 5/8" in healthy men. If you look up how to measure a penis, they always tell you to press a ruler firmly into the fat pad. Do the lengths of your plastic models reflect that? For example, are your 6 3/4" models actually 6 1/8"? If so, that is good. If not, you’re giving out bad information. If your women preferred 6.3-6.4" of visible penis, that means they really want one that is 6 7/8-7.0". Please clarify this. Thank you in advance for your response.
Nicole Prause, it has been over a year since I posted this, why haven’t you responded? This is a VERY important question. Please reply, thank you
😂🤣😭💀
IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION
Please reply,
I showed you my bone-pressed dick answer me
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I can’t fix ugly and I’m not a billionaire so I can’t live in cities where other 20-somethings are, or pay for expensive workshops to get me jobs there.
Life is for rich, hot people and I am neither.
You can fix ugly. A nice shirt a such gets all but the most extreme cases up in acceptable range. Plenty of 30 or 40 year olds are good company. Get you a milf/dilf/tilf. Bonus they will probably tell you what shirt would look good on you and help you fix the first problem. Capitalism is a fuck though. Most people are average/below average and we all get by with each other fine.
Plenty of 30 or 40 year olds are good company. Get you a milf
I’m down, but I can’t find a way to meet one of those either.
Not wanting to date with in their bracket
There are good comments here, but I would also like to add this: too many guys follow the “focus on school/yourself, not girls” advice with terrible outcomes.
The advice is not bad, just incomplete when given to others. Yes, passing your classes is important and so is improving yourself. But these things do not need to happen in a vacuum. Being successful in classes and spending less time on it often involves collaborating with others, and improving yourself - especially in the dating realm - involves socializing with others and maybe even asking people out. If you’re already alone and miserable, locking yourself away from everyone to “focus on math” or “focus on yourself” won’t do you any good.
You should strive to improve yourself and be content with yourself, but it’s a lifelong process. You’ll never reach 100%, and it’s pointless to “wait” until you do. Getting friends and relationships could give you more reason to improve yourself, and even if the relationship fails, you still have that progress and know you can do it again.
I’ve seen plenty of people who claim they’re perfectly happy waiting years, decades to “meet the right one” because they focused on school or improving their bodies and personalities. That’s awesome, but I’ve yet to meet this kind of person in real life. All the people who tell me to “just focus on school” or work first are extremely lonely and miserable. I don’t find their advice too valuable. If you’re dependent and clingy, then perhaps some alone time will help until you build enough confidence to look forward to something in life, but for everyone else, you will likely benefit from trying to form relationships as part of your progress to improving yourself or your self-image.
If you’re already alone and miserable, locking yourself away from everyone to “focus on math” or “focus on yourself” won’t do you any good.
Furthermore, people who rise up to higher positions or are at least well liked at work aren’t necessarily “the best at their jobs” but are ones that get along with others. In fact I’d wager that most job interviews are really about seeing if you’ll gel well with everyone else as opposed to your “ability” or “skills.” So yeah only focusing on “math” or whatever will mean you’re the lonely loser guy who nobody invites to lunch.
For sure. I’m only like 70% qualified for my current my current job. But I rehearsed my interview and got everyone to loosen up and they even told me they had a difficult time choosing between me and everyone else. It’s good to desire high competency at something or be perfectly content in life, but very few people can do that let alone do it alone. It’s not worth becoming the “tragic xyz” at the expense of your mental health and relationships
This is something I think I realized too late. I’ve made a lot of progress in my life in the past five years or so, but I honestly can’t say I’m any more fulfilled than I was back then. Now I’m not in school and spend most of my time alone. I always hear people say “Oh go get a social hobby, go to bars, put yourself out there bro” but it’s easier said than done. Most of the friendships I develop this way end up amounting to casual acquaintances at best. I have a few actual friends I made through work just by virtue of being around them constantly, but we still don’t do that much stuff together. So I just never end up meeting that many new people on a regular basis. That’s when I fall back to the apps, which suck for all the reasons everyone has described a billion times over.
It’s definitely a hard cycle to break. I’m graduating soon and it terrifies me - not because of adult responsibilities, but because I’ll likely never have the opportunities from school again. Sure, maybe college will not be “the best years of my life,” but it’s still a significant chunk of my life. I don’t want to begin living when I have to be worried about so many things. I have to start now, and if I fail, then hopefully I’ll be able to bring what I learn and experienced to form something better afterwards. I already hate being behind everyone socially, so I definitely don’t want to wait until I’m a full fledged adult and still mess up basic shit.
love this one.
Good advice. If you struggle with dating like me, the last thing you want to do is take advice from someone who didn’t struggle with dating and just kind of fell into a relationship. College is the absolutely best time to meet someone, you’ll never be around as many young single available partners as in college. I figured that out way too late. Didn’t have my first long term relationship until I was 38. I got super lucky, partner was also raised with the same mindset of focus on yourself/your career, etc.
varies dramatically on a case by case basis
I think a lot of it is guys that don’t put themselves out there (I do this too) because rejection and the vulnerability of admiting to someone you like them is authentically very scary
I think this is exacerbated by the fact a lot of guys are taught what not to do that certain behaviours are creepy which is good, but there is a lacking part which is teaching what you should do instead
Ooh also, I’m pretty sure I’ve been clocked as “quirky”/ “different” (am autistic) one too many times
That’s another hidden side of this- attraction is complex
People act like getting matches/attention irl based on how you look is the end all be all but it’s just one of many steps to a date.
I think this question also stems from the prevailing notion at a societal level that love/sex is finite and one is “incomplete” without it
love/sex is finite
what do you mean?
Those things can be shared between multiple people (mostly talking about love not sex)
Well, for me, it’s fear that I won’t be enough considering the fact that I’m probably ace
So probably a shit ton of complicated reasons, some based in misogyny and some based on fundamental incompatibility
I don’t want to inflict myself on anyone else.
I’ve been told that I’m funny/smart/cute/would make a good partner, including the unintentionally backhanded compliment that is “how are you still single!?”, but I also have a heap of mental issues including depression and grief that I feel has hollowed me out as a person. I really struggle with even basic self care & keeping my living space one step above a landfill.
I don’t want to make me someone elses problem, and I have a hard time not thinking I’d just drag anyone I meet down.
I have other reasons for still being single in my late 20s with very limited romantic experiences, but not wanting to be the anchor tied around someone’s neck is a big part of it. Of course there’s also not wanting to be pestering women for dates, dating apps being designed to take your self esteem out behind the shed and shooting it, not having/liking social hobbies, extremely limited social battery, etc etc, but my own mental illnesses/struggles are a big reason I haven’t been on a date or had a romantic encounter for 6 or 7 years now.
Maybe my 30s will be brighter than my 20s. I’m trying to be optimistic, but
nobody owes you attention. be better. do more interesting things with your life. whatever you’re doing isn’t working so do something else.
and above all, the most important piece of advice: if your first instinct upon rejection or things not working out how you had in your head is to lash out and start yelling or saying abusive things then you aren’t fit to be in human society yet. kill that instinct by whatever means necessary. chill the fuck out.
stfu liberal dork
“nobody owes you attention. be better.”this sort of transactional essentialist thinking wouldn’t exist in a better society
I’ve never been a fan of that saying, thanks for putting that succinctly
“have you considered not being depressed\socially anxious or poor? Just be better”
sure mate, nobody depressed or anxious or poor has ever found a way to spend their time that helped them grow as a person or have an interesting life story
They do once their depression gets better though? Anhedonia, loss of interest/libido/attention/whatever the fuck else are symptoms of depression. I’m all for self-improvement, my own mental health improved greatly as a result of trying to improve myself, to the point I consider myself no longer depressed. But we’re social creatures and no one builds self-confidence and mental resilience in a vacuum. It’s often up to the depressed person to put themselves out in situations where this can happen, but sometimes it does not work out for whatever reason and the whole thing is a long process. In this situation self-compassion is a lot better than telling yourself you’re a sack of shit.
Also, isn’t the interesting life thing all backwards? If you like a person you get curious and find them interesting. If I like a guy I’ll find what they are into cool, be it singing, playing chess or knowing a lot about bugs.
No one is owed that kind of attention, but most people are worthy of compassion.
Also, isn’t the interesting life thing all backwards? If you like a person you get curious and find them interesting. If I like a guy I’ll find what they are into cool, be it singing, playing chess or knowing a lot about bugs.
Not necessarily a strict rule. I don’t care for sports and never will no matter how much I love a person. But if they play sports, then I would definitely care about them succeeding and their goals and struggles even if it means I research their sport. But ultimately, I still won’t care about the sport - I care about the other person’s goals and outcomes.
The contrast would be guys who belittle or look down on their girlfriends for being interested in makeup. They may not care about it, but they can at least show appreciation for the effort and do some basic research to understand the allure and challenges.
And even then, OP still has a point. Whether you’re interested in a person’s hobbies because you like them or you like them because their hobbies are interesting, you still need to be interesting. This doesn’t mean you need to go rock climbing in Asia or be awarded for a bunch of things. You can read books all day and provide analysis or comparisons or be knowledgeable in many areas. You definitely won’t attract many people if all you do is play games and stay in your room.
And even then, OP still has a point.
Yeah, kinda. But the framing is all fucked. Someone that can’t improve themselves because of depression don’t need “tough love” or to hear they are disinteresting and on their own, they need to see the inate value in themselves. Everyone IS interesting, they just have to nurture that and demonstrate it to others.
kinda crazy to see the tOuGh LoVe™ enthusiasts on hexbear
Yea and thats only possible with time and effort and support from others
Just telling people to “be better” is not support
And im sorry to say but sometimes when a person is depressed they might not have a “interesting life story” whatever that means
time and effort and support from others
support we don’t have, time we can’t afford, and effort we can’t spare because just existing is so arduous.
Nobody can change your life for you. If things aren’t going how you want, no matter what obstacles you’re facing, there are only two choices. Do something (literally anything) different, or succumb and wait for the world to drop change in your lap.
An interesting life story can be damned near anything, but it’s probably not going to be based on watching a lot of Netflix and hanging out online.
We live in an unparalleled golden age for learning hobbies for cheap thanks to YouTube and the productive forces of Chinese Socialism.
I refer back to my first point; nobody owes you attention. Does the sad sack you’re describing sound like a fun or interesting date?
Wow way to make a person feel like shit about themselves. Fuck you too buddy
i think your basic point is correct but you don’t have to be such a prick about it
Death to America
Nobody can change your life for you.
bullshit. i’ve seen people be rescued.
It happens but I don’t think it’s sustainable to “save” everyone. It’s why the mindset of “I can fix her” is a meme. It’s why people are even commenting here. Even if a communist society is somehow able to magically provide “saving” go every struggling person, but we don’t live there. We live in a hellscape, and we can’t individually rescue everyone.
It’s why we need to create the tools and guides for people to start by themselves and be there when they fall. We can’t walk for babies, but we can show them how it’s done and help them up when they fall.
fucking shut up, chud
nobody owes you attention
No one owes anyone anything but it doesnt hurt to have a little fking empathy
stfu dork
how do we not have a bootstraps emote? or is it named something totally asinine
or is it named something totally asinine
Honestly I love that aspect of our emotes. There was a time where for like 6 months I couldn’t for the life of me find
I actually enjoy more crude posts like this. It’s the unfortunate truth. Most days I wallow in misery but sentiments like yours are always present in my mind.
I mean - there are people out there who are condemned by society to likely be alone forever. These are the ones who are physically deformed or severely physically/mentally disabled. The latter is because society is ableist and doesn’t want to accommodate people’s needs, and the former is because even the most compassionate and progressive person will have a hard time falling in love with someone who has no eyes or mouth or nose or whose body is misshaped in some way.
Fortunately I don’t face these extreme challenges, and because of that society will give me a chance. I find it insulting that I keep wallowing even though I have the opportunity to change while those who quite literally cannot change in any way are trying their damnest to live a fulfilling life anyway. And beyond that, people form relationships and fall in love in times of war and genocide and slavery. Capitalism or not, money or none, I feel like I can achieve something when I’m far removed from these conflicts. I owe it to the wretched of the earth to live because otherwise the fascists win.
I look at him in the mirror and say: “you need to lose weight and keep going to therapy, instead”
Yes I know it’s internalized fatophobia, but I would really appreciate a forehead kiss and being held
Thank you 🥺
my joint pain and no cardio aren’t fatphobia and taking drugs doesn’t really seem like the reasonable thing to do about those.
I succumb to my mental health too much because I can work out pretty good but I stress eat a lot, it’s something I’ve barely began to realize and it’s a disassociation binge
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Being vulnerable is seen as a feminine trait in society. It’s why people don’t bother girls or women when they’re close to each other and share their concerns and thoughts. But if a boy or man does it, he’ll be accused of “being in his feelings” or a pussy. I think statistically, most females have a richer support network compared to most males.
I’ve had a few close friends and several friend groups growing up, and I honestly cannot tell you anything about my make friends’ personal lives, but pretty much all the girls I’ve been friends with tell me everything about them and I can reciprocate without the fear of being judged or mocked. In my experience, guys tend to try to turn uncomfortable or personal topics with other guys into banter, myself included. It’s not malicious, but we’ve never been taught or experience intimacy and vulnerability with each other the same way we do with girls.
So basically after a few years of just hanging out with women using this method my social skills had developed enough through sheer quantity of training data that I could take flight and make other friends myself, plus of course the friends I had while I was learning were real friends, and this is also coincidentally around the time women started finding me attractive in a more-than-friends way.
how old were you when this happened?
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Women for whatever reason have much more advanced social skills than men at most ages in our society, and are much more accepting of people without highly developed social skills as friends.
A bit of a tangent but women, and AFAB people in general, are probably better socialised because they have to have a good sense of solidarity to survive under patriarchy, similar to queer people. Women growing up generally form more emotionally open bonds with each other than men do with men. Women will walk each other home on nights out, ensure that their friends are safe, give each other a tampon and are generally more willing to help each other out than men are to help men out. Men don’t fear being assaulted when they walk home to the same extent or for the same reasons women do, and are expected by other men to be able to defend themselves. So women form bonds out of necessity, for their safety under patriarchy (and obviously because they want friends), so they have more practice socialising. And of course, toxic masculinity plays a massive part in why men are not as good at making connections as women.
This is generalised and theoretical, and just comes from my experiences in life, but I think it definitely plays a part in why men struggle to socialise compared to women
