Seriously I’m so confused on this. The USA has a 2 party system. You either vote for Biden or you get Trump. Abstaining from the vote you get Trump. MAGA will have a 100% turnout for their God Emperor.
Trump supports Israel 100%. Again, by not voting for Biden the reality is you’re voting for Trump who is even more supportive of Israel and will also attempt to upend democracy in the west.
You don’t have any options here that support Palestine. The reality of the situation is you either get Biden or Trump and the latter is infinitely worse for the ideal you’re trying to uphold by abstaining. That’s how politics work in the US. You might not like it, it sucks, but unfortunately that’s just the way things work.
CMV
If you’re a US citizen, consider joining the DSA. I’m a long-time member. I think it’s safe to say the DSA has, historically, been a disorganized parody of a leftist organization (as much as I love and respect many of the people in it that I’ve worked with), but things are changing. There’s an effort with momentum to turn it into a functioning political party, and not a bullshit green party style party which runs a candidate every four years while being functionally indistinguishable from a grift, but to put in the real work from the ground up to make a party that cares about winning elections and materially making our lives better.
The time to do this was 20 years ago, but we can’t keep delaying it. It’s now fully unconscionable to throw up our hands after some halfhearted discussions about FPTP and game theory every four years while actively watching our world deteriorate. There are other ways, but they don’t start at the ballot box, and they all involve organizing. This is true even if your politics and mine are different. If you care about our death machine funding a genocide, get involved with something, even if it’s the democratic party. It’s fucking boring. It feels like a larp. It’s a tedious ways to spend your Thursday nights after work. I get all that, but we need people who care about human life involved, even if our politics aren’t perfectly aligned, because that’s how you make broad, functioning, powerful coalitions that get shit done.
So you’re saying it doesnt matter who we vote for, since both candidates support the genocide.
Theyre both poison for the world so this hostage situation rhetoric is just useless. The hostage is dead.
I mean if “both candidates support the genocide” you have to look at “how badly do they”, because jokes on you if you think the next president is going to be someone other than them.
One is at least making an attempt to minimize the casualties by diplomacy with the other suggesting that Hezbollah involvement would be a good idea. The choice is clear.
I dont believe any attempt at minimizing casualties is happening at all. Any lines being drawn? Deadlines to be met, funds being withheld? Only thing thats happening is a skyrocketing civilian death toll in Gaza with zero consequences for Israel.
That’s probably because Israel literally wears the Star of David on their suit jacket while they perform their genocide, wearing their “oppression” on their sleeve with a need to be “sensitive” to their “plight”. It definitely takes balls and commitment, and the US hasn’t had balls in the office for 30 years. Who do you think would have the balls?
I guess youve forgotten what you were replying to. This is just convincing me more of my original post.
No I know exactly what I was replying to.
If it doesn’t matter who we vote for, who would you vote for? Who has the balls?
Bernie probably, who has tried blocking military aid to Israel.
I mean if “both candidates support the genocide” you have to look at “how badly do they”,
Jesus Christ will you raise these bars, I keep tripping and hitting my shins
Trumpists have been actively deflecting from their own Asshole in Chief’s genocidal support by pointing to Biden’s genocidal support. As a result, people who haven’t been paying attention are completely unaware of how much more Trump supports killing brown people.
The reality is that the two options are Genocide Lite and Literal Nazi Supporting Genocide. Not voting or voting third petty gets you Literal Nazi Supporting Genocide. There is no realistic option that gets you Palestinian support, and you can blame the two party system for that, but at the end of the day we are all being forced to decide which flavor of genocide we’d prefer.
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How are there individuals who understand the Palestinian/Gaza conflict circumstances regarding Biden yet don’t have knowledge of Trump’s absolute undying support for Benjamin Netanyahu?
Because its inconvenient to their narrative.
Became there are people like you and the comment you’re replying to you that think they understand the conflict, but in reality just fall for propaganda.
Because of right wingers muddying the waters to try to make Trump seem like the better option by keeping Biden front and center.
Spoiler: he’s worse than Biden.
People are not leaving the Democrat party to go to Trump.
They are leaving the Democrat party to leave the 2 party system.
They are disenfranchised, as they should be in the context.
Its a difference that Biden boot-lickers cant seem to wrap their mind around.
There’s a point to be made that NOW is not the time to make this stand. Leave the Democratic Party- and you’re handing america to trump.
Period. End of argument.
While you aren’t wrong, with all the sycophants and rural christofacists lining up downstream, when is a good time to leave the Democratic Party? The wealthy seemingly have ultimate control of both parties, regardless of social pressures, so what choice ultimately will right the ship, rather than just kick the bucket further along?
I definitely don’t want Trump, but the question still remains: how long to we have to stomach the lesser of two evils?
I also want to abolish the 2 party system. It’s the only way we will ever see true progress or stand a chance of reducing the influence of the rich.
Duverger’s Law says that voting systems with a single winner will result in two main parties emerging with votes merely drawn away by other parties.
In other words, voting 3rd party in our current system won’t make a 3rd party viable. At best it will replace one of the parties.
Instead, if you want a multi party system, the most effective way to achieve that is for you to work on getting ranked choice voting in your state.
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If Trump wins, we won’t have fair elections in 2028. Do they need to see a second insurrection to get off the fence?
They’ve never ever been truly fair. But it can definitely get worse. Don’t make excuses.
Right? Like, just go read about Project 2025 if you somehow still think the GOP is benign. Jfc.
Or, idk, maybe remember the absolute clusterfuck that was the Trump presidency? That was only 2016-2020 so not particularly hard to remember if you’re not suffering memory loss.
Anyone who says it is worth risking Trump and the GOP gaining power again is either a fool, a fascist or racist Trump shill, ignorant, stupid, insane, suffering memory loss, experiencing cognitive decline, or an operative for a foreign government working psyops – or some combination thereof.
Absolutely this. Every election is becoming more of a zero sum game than the last. In the 24 election one of the candidates is very open about his fascist view and implementation if said views
The thing to understand is this:
Russia has infiltrated and compromised the conservatives.
Russia and China have infiltrated and compromised the extreme leftists. Aka “tankies”. The goal is not to improve anything. The goal is for people to willingly destroy their own government to reduce the power of The West.
So the loudest voices are straight up government agents. And that propagates to the less loud influencers who are… just stupid. They know American Imperialism is bad (and it REALLY is) and see someone telling them they can do something. But they don’t know how to critically think about anything so they just parrot it.
And then you have the other aspect of horse shoe theory. Just like libertarians and fascists think THEY will come out on top, so too do a lot of the tankies. They think that they will be the autocrats who are “getting things done” rather than being under the thumb of the horrible people who take power.
You either vote for Biden or you get Trump. Abstaining from the vote you get Trump. MAGA will have a 100% turnout for their God Emperor.
Also, voting 3rd party in the general election…you get Trump.
Our two-party system is awful and failing us horribly. If I had to guess, they’re just as frustrated as I am and that’s the only way they can blow off steam; make idle threats about “taking my
businessvote elsewhere”.Hopefully it’s just frustrated, idle rhetoric and they show up at the polls to vote for the only sane option that has a real chance.
100% agree. People saying this are either GOP shills or people that don’t understand how math & game theory work in relation to FPtP voting & think they can make a 3rd party happen if they want it badly enough.
People saying this are either GOP shills or people that don’t understand how math & game theory work
false dichotomy. i understand math and game theory, and neither of them change whether i’m going to vote for genocide. i’m also not a gop shill, but i would be, because i need the fuckin money.
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no, I’m voting against genocide. only by voting for Democrats or Republicans are you voting for genocide, as this post makes so abundantly clear.
I remember 2016 and the dialogue around the election fairly well, and this feels nostalgic. “Maybe he won’t be so bad”* is coming after trump is elected.
*Editors note: he will bei’m not voting for him, so don’t worry.
May your sister experience an unwanted pregnancy in the Deep South, my friend.
what a thing to wish on someone who isnt voting for trump.
Some people will refuse to pull the lever to divert the trolley from killing 10 people, because pulling the lever kills 1.
me. that’s me. i don’t murder people.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that you aren’t making the choice to not let someone die.
People are just expecting you to be able to handle being asked, “Why did you let 10 people die when there was an option for you to only let 1 person die instead?”
The trolley being on the warpath isn’t your fault; but you did have the option to reduce the number of deaths by taking action. Through your choice, an objectively larger number of people suffered, died, or lost a loved one. And for some actual reason you didn’t pull the lever other than “I’m not a murderer.”
We understand you aren’t a murderer. You aren’t intending to hurt anyone. But through your action, you can reduce the number of people murdered. Don’t be surprised when people are confused at your lack of rationale.
“Why did you let 10 people die when there was an option for you to only let 1 person die instead?”
that’s not really the choice. the choice is let 10 people die or murder one person.
Don’t be surprised when people are confused at your lack of rationale.
i’m being fully rational about this for any deontological viewpoint. if you disagree with deontological ethics, then we have nothing to discuss: i don’t care to try to convince you you’re wrong, and i’ve heard all the arguments you can summon.
Refusing to make a choice is still a choice.
The only options are: status quo that doesn’t do the bare minimum against genocide, or an actual fascist who is literally promising to do more genocide.
Yes I know that both options are terrible and the system is fucking garbage, but if you refuse to vote for the lesser evil you’re not taking some moral high road, you’re just enabling the worst evil
Refusing to make a choice is still a choice.
if the choice i’m making is “not endorsing a genocidal president” then i can live with that. i couldn’t live with myself if i did endorse genocide.
Again
Yes I know that both options are terrible and the system is fucking garbage, but if you refuse to vote for the lesser evil you’re not taking some moral high road, you’re just enabling the worst evil
the only people enabling evil are those who vote for it.
The only options are: status quo that doesn’t do the bare minimum against genocide, or an actual fascist who is literally promising to do more genocide.
i expect to have at least 4 names on my ballot. i don’t need to pick one of your favorite teams.
Do any of those names have a snowballs chance in hell to prevent Trump or Biden from winning the election?
In the real world, I mean, not in your imaginary perfect world.
i don’t have a crystal ball, but i do have a conscience.
by not voting for Biden the reality is you’re voting for Trump
only by voting for trump are you voting for trump. voting for literally anyone else is voting against trump. not voting at all is not voting for trump.
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wrong
Nah, it’s pretty evident that either you don’t understand or are willfully ignorant/trolling. In the off chance that you are in fact that confident in yourself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting#Tactical_voting
When I was younger I was one of those “enlightened centrists” who believed in things like the purity of my vote, but reality caught up with me eventually. There is no merit to such purity in first past the post systems with an entrenched plurality.
The only virtue of a wasted vote is the personal satisfaction that you get out of it, and that personal satisfaction has no real world effect on politics. The only exception is when you are voting for a visionary with overwhelmingly popular support. (i.e. you would know if one is in the race)
Nah, it’s pretty evident that either you don’t understand or are willfully ignorant/trolling.
false dichotomy
The only virtue of a wasted vote is the personal satisfaction that you get out of it, and that personal satisfaction has no real world effect on politics unless you are voting for a visionary with overwhelmingly popular support. (i.e. you would know if one is in the race)
if i’m wasting my vote then i may as well not vote at all. but i’m going to vote and it’s going to be for someone who won’t sign off on genocide.
When I was younger I was one of those “enlightened centrists” who believed in things like the purity of my vote, but reality caught up with me eventually.
baby, i’m an anarchist.
No one cares what either of us are, it was only relevant to my anecdote. :P Your commenting pattern appears to have become somewhat manic, so I’ll leave you to it.
Your commenting pattern appears to have become somewhat manic, so I’ll leave you to it.
I have a strong preference to leave short comments about only one idea at a time.
have a nice day
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impugning my intelligence doesn’t change whether i’m right. your ad hominem says more about you than it does me.
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Yes but if not enough people pick the same Not Trump we will get Trump anyway.
Best. Government. Ever. /s
Technically correct, but not voting at all is failing to do your utmost to prevent fascism, and is thus vile and reprehensible, like voting Trump.
I’m going to vote, I just haven’t decided whether it will be for cornel west or jill stein
Might as well rip your ballot into pieces or light it on fire. It’s functionally equivalent, except insofar as you don’t have to drop it off, and if you choose the burn option, you might get some pleasant heat.
if you want to choose who I vote for, I have reasonable rates.
It is 100% your choice whether you throw your ballot in the garbage or not.
i’m probably gonna vote for cornel west, but jill stein can still win me back!
if it’s genocide either way, i’m still not going to vote for genocide.
It’s like an algebra equation. Genocide is on both sides of the equation, so we can cancel it out. Then we are left with Biden being a ridiculously old Boomer and Trump wanting to finish destroying our democracy.
genocide doesn’t cancel out. it’s bad and i won’t vote for it.
deleted by creator
By not voting for genocide you’re voting for genocide
wrong
I’m willing to be dollars to donuts you’re simply looking for an excuse not to get off the couch and vote.
oh, I’m going to vote. for $20,000 you can decide who I vote for.
So you’re gonna get the worse genocide. Yay!
ballots don’t stop bullets
I’d say double genocide. Palestinians and transgenders.
How did the genocide under Trump compare to how its going under Biden?
If you compare to the Mexican border during Trump which has direct involvement under him. Or COVID, also direct involvement, Biden is doing alright genocide-wise. You’ll have to be more specific - pick a genocide and a definition. This is an Israel/Hamas war, not a United States one.
Ethnically targeted killings. In this case, against palestinians. And this has heavy US involvement with the billions in US funding Israel is using to commit it.
I mean this is a pretty specific definition. Israel has a record of generally only genociding during the reign of a Democrat president (Battle of Gaza, Operation Cast Lead).
How about the defense of Ukraine which literally helped prevent genocide of Ukranians from Russian aggression? There’s value there.
Saying this, I agree, funds for Israel should stop.
You don’t have any options here that supports Palestine.
cornel west.
You either vote for Biden or you get Trump
i didn’t vote for biden last time and i got biden. seems like your theory might be flawed.
Same. I sure didn’t vote for Trump either. But all of the people who I know who voted trump still got Biden. Literally 100%. Probably anecdotal or maybe the people I know got swapped with a multiverse counterpart who did vote Biden but have the memories of this universe’s version.
You’re welcome.
Its a highly parroted false dichotomy. If not voting for Biden is akin to supporting Trump then not voting Trump is akin to supporting Biden.
What I do know is your vote is power. No politician can be elected without being given it. If you’re giving that power to the lesser of two genociders you’re endorsing a genocider. You handed material power to someone supporting genocide, that necessarily makes you at least a little complicit.
Choosing the lesser genocide is still chosing genocide, and that’s not what never again is supposed to mean. How is it hard to understand some people do not feel comfortable choosing any amount of genocide when your choice directly empowers a genocide.
Saying we have to vote for one evil is like saying a conscientious objector in war has to fight for the other side or they’re not doing anything to solve the problem. No the point is we disagree with all of it. Conscientious objectors don’t end wars, are they a wasted strategy too?
Conscientious objectors don’t end wars, are they a wasted strategy too?
I don’t consider it a strategy to end war, I consider it a personal conviction. I don’t care about the efficacy: either it’s the right thing to do, or it is not.
Then it seems like you understand my position on never again. I don’t need or expect agreement but that’s what I feel.
we’re in this together.
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Then why is RFK pulling more prospective Republican than prospective Democrats?
RFK is not a Democrat or a progressive. His politics are all over the place. He’s running independent now and appeals to some of the Rs because he’s a nut job like them, he is pro abortion bans, anti-vaccine, and espouses racist covid conspiracy theories. Shocking that the party that voted Trump in sees some “likable” qualities in the guy.
It’s not
by not voting for Biden the reality is you’re voting for Trump
The same ol tired played out “I am a delusional moron” argument.
1 + 0 does not = 2, dipshit.
The REALITY of the situation is that both parties are the same. Both parties are genocidal. Both parties are stripping away our rights one by one. Both parties are making the rich richer. Both parties are making the poor poorer. They are working together to do this and then turning to the American people and saying “we cant work together, UwU!”
By not voting for Biden or Trump, I am not voting for Biden or Trump. Period.
I suggest others follow suit until we have vote worthy candidates, but I understand, morons like you are too addicted to the flavor of your parties boots.
I am voting disenfranchised. I am refusing to give Biden or Trump my voter turnout to advance their agenda.
I am making the only move that can force the end of the 2 party system.
I refuse to be a whiny little defeatist piss boy who votes for genocide and turns around and says “but they made me do it! There is nothing I can do about it!”
De-legitimize the 2 party system. Don’t become a fascist to fight fascism.
Not that hard, moron.
Non-participation doesn’t break the system, the system will happily chug along without you. Refusing to vote just means they can safely ignore you.
If you had a point, it was lost in all the needless insults. Grow up and try again.
irony
If Trump wins again, I am buying a one way ticket out of the country because I’m trans, brown, college educated, in a same sex relationship, an immigrant, and an outspoken liberal. His cult literally considers me subhuman and he is openly bragging about how he’ll turn the country into the next Reich.
If Biden wins, I don’t have to uproot my life and instead continue to be disenfranchised by a party of centrists and conservatives posing as leftists
They are not the same and anyone who tries to argue otherwise in this day and age is either stupid or malicious. Which one is it?
They are not the same and anyone who tries to argue otherwise in this day and age is either stupid or malicious.
no one is saying they are the same.
I don’t think you can expect rational discourse from a collective concern.
Some people will agree with you. Some people will disagree, because at the end of the day, if you’re willing to vote for someone even when they don’t do what you like, then they have no incentive to consider anything you like.
Neither position is wrong.
Our system, which sets up two bad options, is what’s wrong.
This is ultimately a false dichotomy. We operate as if there are only two options, because no one person has the power to fix this, but instead of recognizing that the system is broken, we blame each other for not going all in on what we all admit is problematic.
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If you’re in a swing state. You vote for Biden.
If you’re not in a swing state, you vote third party.
Don’t not vote, by voting you make your intention and commitment very clear. Even if your third party candidate never has a chance, mainstream politicians may notice the interest in that third party candidates platform and adopt some of his/her policies.
Participate in your state’s primary elections. There’s a lot more diversity of policies there and you can make your voice heard there as well.
Participate in your city and state elections, the amount of money effort and attention placed on federal elections (especially presidential) is completely outsized compared to local elections. Which means the amount of influence that you can have as an individual relative to amount of power the offices that you have influence over is huge compared to the same calculation at the federal level.
Many politicians start at the state and municipal level. So your influence there can be very helpful. Also if Trumps gets some success at creating a authoritarian dystopia at the federal level, it can be mitigated at the state and municipal level. Just like how each state can make sure to protect the right of abortion despite the supreme court flip on the subject.
Participate in your state’s primary elections.
cornel west won’t be on the democrat or republican ticket. neither will jill stein.
If you’re in a swing state. You vote for Biden.
if you want to buy my vote, i gotta cover a 5k federal fine and a 5k state fine. put another 10k on top for my trouble and you can choose who i vote for!
