Seriously I’m so confused on this. The USA has a 2 party system. You either vote for Biden or you get Trump. Abstaining from the vote you get Trump. MAGA will have a 100% turnout for their God Emperor.
Trump supports Israel 100%. Again, by not voting for Biden the reality is you’re voting for Trump who is even more supportive of Israel and will also attempt to upend democracy in the west.
You don’t have any options here that support Palestine. The reality of the situation is you either get Biden or Trump and the latter is infinitely worse for the ideal you’re trying to uphold by abstaining. That’s how politics work in the US. You might not like it, it sucks, but unfortunately that’s just the way things work.
CMV
I don’t know Biden or Trump’s stance against the situation. From the post, I understand Biden is Anti-Israel or what?
You either vote for Biden or you get Trump
i didn’t vote for biden last time and i got biden. seems like your theory might be flawed.
You’re welcome.
Its a highly parroted false dichotomy. If not voting for Biden is akin to supporting Trump then not voting Trump is akin to supporting Biden.
What I do know is your vote is power. No politician can be elected without being given it. If you’re giving that power to the lesser of two genociders you’re endorsing a genocider. You handed material power to someone supporting genocide, that necessarily makes you at least a little complicit.
Choosing the lesser genocide is still chosing genocide, and that’s not what never again is supposed to mean. How is it hard to understand some people do not feel comfortable choosing any amount of genocide when your choice directly empowers a genocide.
Saying we have to vote for one evil is like saying a conscientious objector in war has to fight for the other side or they’re not doing anything to solve the problem. No the point is we disagree with all of it. Conscientious objectors don’t end wars, are they a wasted strategy too?
Conscientious objectors don’t end wars, are they a wasted strategy too?
I don’t consider it a strategy to end war, I consider it a personal conviction. I don’t care about the efficacy: either it’s the right thing to do, or it is not.
Then it seems like you understand my position on never again. I don’t need or expect agreement but that’s what I feel.
we’re in this together.
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Then why is RFK pulling more prospective Republican than prospective Democrats?
RFK is not a Democrat or a progressive. His politics are all over the place. He’s running independent now and appeals to some of the Rs because he’s a nut job like them, he is pro abortion bans, anti-vaccine, and espouses racist covid conspiracy theories. Shocking that the party that voted Trump in sees some “likable” qualities in the guy.
Same. I sure didn’t vote for Trump either. But all of the people who I know who voted trump still got Biden. Literally 100%. Probably anecdotal or maybe the people I know got swapped with a multiverse counterpart who did vote Biden but have the memories of this universe’s version.
100% agree. People saying this are either GOP shills or people that don’t understand how math & game theory work in relation to FPtP voting & think they can make a 3rd party happen if they want it badly enough.
People saying this are either GOP shills or people that don’t understand how math & game theory work
false dichotomy. i understand math and game theory, and neither of them change whether i’m going to vote for genocide. i’m also not a gop shill, but i would be, because i need the fuckin money.
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no, I’m voting against genocide. only by voting for Democrats or Republicans are you voting for genocide, as this post makes so abundantly clear.
I remember 2016 and the dialogue around the election fairly well, and this feels nostalgic. “Maybe he won’t be so bad”* is coming after trump is elected.
*Editors note: he will bei’m not voting for him, so don’t worry.
May your sister experience an unwanted pregnancy in the Deep South, my friend.
what a thing to wish on someone who isnt voting for trump.
Some people will refuse to pull the lever to divert the trolley from killing 10 people, because pulling the lever kills 1.
me. that’s me. i don’t murder people.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that you aren’t making the choice to not let someone die.
People are just expecting you to be able to handle being asked, “Why did you let 10 people die when there was an option for you to only let 1 person die instead?”
The trolley being on the warpath isn’t your fault; but you did have the option to reduce the number of deaths by taking action. Through your choice, an objectively larger number of people suffered, died, or lost a loved one. And for some actual reason you didn’t pull the lever other than “I’m not a murderer.”
We understand you aren’t a murderer. You aren’t intending to hurt anyone. But through your action, you can reduce the number of people murdered. Don’t be surprised when people are confused at your lack of rationale.
Don’t be surprised when people are confused at your lack of rationale.
i’m being fully rational about this for any deontological viewpoint. if you disagree with deontological ethics, then we have nothing to discuss: i don’t care to try to convince you you’re wrong, and i’ve heard all the arguments you can summon.
“Why did you let 10 people die when there was an option for you to only let 1 person die instead?”
that’s not really the choice. the choice is let 10 people die or murder one person.
Refusing to make a choice is still a choice.
The only options are: status quo that doesn’t do the bare minimum against genocide, or an actual fascist who is literally promising to do more genocide.
Yes I know that both options are terrible and the system is fucking garbage, but if you refuse to vote for the lesser evil you’re not taking some moral high road, you’re just enabling the worst evil
The only options are: status quo that doesn’t do the bare minimum against genocide, or an actual fascist who is literally promising to do more genocide.
i expect to have at least 4 names on my ballot. i don’t need to pick one of your favorite teams.
Do any of those names have a snowballs chance in hell to prevent Trump or Biden from winning the election?
In the real world, I mean, not in your imaginary perfect world.
i don’t have a crystal ball, but i do have a conscience.
Refusing to make a choice is still a choice.
if the choice i’m making is “not endorsing a genocidal president” then i can live with that. i couldn’t live with myself if i did endorse genocide.
Again
Yes I know that both options are terrible and the system is fucking garbage, but if you refuse to vote for the lesser evil you’re not taking some moral high road, you’re just enabling the worst evil
the only people enabling evil are those who vote for it.
You either vote for Biden or you get Trump. Abstaining from the vote you get Trump. MAGA will have a 100% turnout for their God Emperor.
Also, voting 3rd party in the general election…you get Trump.
Our two-party system is awful and failing us horribly. If I had to guess, they’re just as frustrated as I am and that’s the only way they can blow off steam; make idle threats about “taking my
businessvote elsewhere”.Hopefully it’s just frustrated, idle rhetoric and they show up at the polls to vote for the only sane option that has a real chance.
Not voting for Trump doesn’t take a stance against genocide either. Both support genocide and you can argue back and forth about who wants more genocide in Palestine. In the end the argument is pointless because if you want to actually prevent genocide you need to organize outside the electoral system.
I don’t think you can expect rational discourse from a collective concern.
Some people will agree with you. Some people will disagree, because at the end of the day, if you’re willing to vote for someone even when they don’t do what you like, then they have no incentive to consider anything you like.
Neither position is wrong.
Our system, which sets up two bad options, is what’s wrong.
This is ultimately a false dichotomy. We operate as if there are only two options, because no one person has the power to fix this, but instead of recognizing that the system is broken, we blame each other for not going all in on what we all admit is problematic.
Trumpists have been actively deflecting from their own Asshole in Chief’s genocidal support by pointing to Biden’s genocidal support. As a result, people who haven’t been paying attention are completely unaware of how much more Trump supports killing brown people.
The reality is that the two options are Genocide Lite and Literal Nazi Supporting Genocide. Not voting or voting third petty gets you Literal Nazi Supporting Genocide. There is no realistic option that gets you Palestinian support, and you can blame the two party system for that, but at the end of the day we are all being forced to decide which flavor of genocide we’d prefer.
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Became there are people like you and the comment you’re replying to you that think they understand the conflict, but in reality just fall for propaganda.
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If Trump wins, we won’t have fair elections in 2028. Do they need to see a second insurrection to get off the fence?
Absolutely this. Every election is becoming more of a zero sum game than the last. In the 24 election one of the candidates is very open about his fascist view and implementation if said views
They’ve never ever been truly fair. But it can definitely get worse. Don’t make excuses.
Right? Like, just go read about Project 2025 if you somehow still think the GOP is benign. Jfc.
Or, idk, maybe remember the absolute clusterfuck that was the Trump presidency? That was only 2016-2020 so not particularly hard to remember if you’re not suffering memory loss.
Anyone who says it is worth risking Trump and the GOP gaining power again is either a fool, a fascist or racist Trump shill, ignorant, stupid, insane, suffering memory loss, experiencing cognitive decline, or an operative for a foreign government working psyops – or some combination thereof.
Because of right wingers muddying the waters to try to make Trump seem like the better option by keeping Biden front and center.
Spoiler: he’s worse than Biden.
People are not leaving the Democrat party to go to Trump.
They are leaving the Democrat party to leave the 2 party system.
They are disenfranchised, as they should be in the context.
Its a difference that Biden boot-lickers cant seem to wrap their mind around.
There’s a point to be made that NOW is not the time to make this stand. Leave the Democratic Party- and you’re handing america to trump.
Period. End of argument.
While you aren’t wrong, with all the sycophants and rural christofacists lining up downstream, when is a good time to leave the Democratic Party? The wealthy seemingly have ultimate control of both parties, regardless of social pressures, so what choice ultimately will right the ship, rather than just kick the bucket further along?
I definitely don’t want Trump, but the question still remains: how long to we have to stomach the lesser of two evils?
I also want to abolish the 2 party system. It’s the only way we will ever see true progress or stand a chance of reducing the influence of the rich.
Duverger’s Law says that voting systems with a single winner will result in two main parties emerging with votes merely drawn away by other parties.
In other words, voting 3rd party in our current system won’t make a 3rd party viable. At best it will replace one of the parties.
Instead, if you want a multi party system, the most effective way to achieve that is for you to work on getting ranked choice voting in your state.
How are there individuals who understand the Palestinian/Gaza conflict circumstances regarding Biden yet don’t have knowledge of Trump’s absolute undying support for Benjamin Netanyahu?
Because its inconvenient to their narrative.
IMO: It’s not really, Trump is a genocidal maniac with a hopelessly broken moral compass. I’m not a fan of Biden but he is the less terrible choice.
Shit candidates are why the United States needs ranked choice voting instead of the busted two party first past the post system we currently have.
So you’re saying it doesnt matter who we vote for, since both candidates support the genocide.
Theyre both poison for the world so this hostage situation rhetoric is just useless. The hostage is dead.
I mean if “both candidates support the genocide” you have to look at “how badly do they”, because jokes on you if you think the next president is going to be someone other than them.
One is at least making an attempt to minimize the casualties by diplomacy with the other suggesting that Hezbollah involvement would be a good idea. The choice is clear.
I dont believe any attempt at minimizing casualties is happening at all. Any lines being drawn? Deadlines to be met, funds being withheld? Only thing thats happening is a skyrocketing civilian death toll in Gaza with zero consequences for Israel.
That’s probably because Israel literally wears the Star of David on their suit jacket while they perform their genocide, wearing their “oppression” on their sleeve with a need to be “sensitive” to their “plight”. It definitely takes balls and commitment, and the US hasn’t had balls in the office for 30 years. Who do you think would have the balls?
I guess youve forgotten what you were replying to. This is just convincing me more of my original post.
No I know exactly what I was replying to.
If it doesn’t matter who we vote for, who would you vote for? Who has the balls?
Bernie probably, who has tried blocking military aid to Israel.
I mean if “both candidates support the genocide” you have to look at “how badly do they”,
Jesus Christ will you raise these bars, I keep tripping and hitting my shins
Maybe you guys should stop electing a king… From an outside point of view your Congress seems kinda powerless, except for blocking stuff
They’re not powerless, they’re inept and frozen with inner conflict and indecision.
They’re not powerlesss, they just lack motivation to not back the capitalist status quo.
nothing to do about it now. congress has continually eroded its own power in order to avoid hard decisions that might cost them their next election. the have concentrated almost all the power in the executive branch, and i don’t see that changing. in fact, if they could create a department of impeachment and place it under the executive i think they would.
It’s not
I am not from the US, but what are the chances of choosing a better candidate during the nomination process?
You can basically forget it happening until 2028. Biden is the incumbent and sitting president and if anyone were going to make a serious attempt at taking his seat from the Dems, they’d already be campaigning and even then it would most likely be a lost cause. Barring a serious upset like an extreme medical issue or death, no other Dem will be taking over the oak office in 2024.
These are bourgeois elections in the country that’s the hub of global capitalist imperialism. The Democratic party isn’t even obliged to go with the will of the people, and the popular vote doesn’t even decide the president.
Approximately 0%, unless Biden has a stroke or something before the election.
So you’re telling me there’s a chance
What’s the incentive for Biden to stop supporting proxy wars if he can count on people voting blue unconditionally? Trump didn’t have a hand in forcing Ukraine into war or arming any proxy war. Neither president supports universal health care. Both presidents are building the border wall. Neither president closed Camp X-Ray. Biden’s more of an idealist in that he unconditionally supports capital, whereas Trump will only support people who flatter, empower or pay him. Biden is actually worse than Trump on an international level, because of his neoliberal pro-war policy, and of course Trump is worse than Biden on a domestic level.
Worse, because democrats vote for them, there’s this sunk cost fallacy where people believe that because the person they voted for won the election, that everything’s cool and our country isn’t sinking into fascism. At least when Trump was president most of the people who believed they are left wing felt free to criticize their president. Nowadays in “left” spaces like lemmy.world you get crucified for going against the neoliberal line or disparaging our precious president.
If you vote for the lesser of two evils, you’re still voting for evil. It’s an endless treadmill. This election is the most important election! Hold your nose and vote for this pro-war pro-capitalism anticommunist strikebreaker. Just put aside your concern for hundreds of thousands of lives threatened by preventable illnesses and US foreign policy and perform your only political activity for the next 2/4 years. I see the US is looking to get involved in Haiti again.
If there’s someone actually good on the ballot, I’ll vote for them. I’ll vote PSL. The fact of the matter though, is that the people in power will not allow citizens to vote away their power, so we’re really left between two choices for people who uphold the racist classist bloodthirsty capitalist power structure. For the impact that voting has in solving the biggest problems facing the country and the world, the importance of voting must not be overstated and we need to focus our energy on meaningful avenues for change instead. If we get public health care and a foreign policy that’s not genocidal, it won’t be because we voted for it in a bourgeois election.
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+0 for Trump, learn to count.
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You’re presenting a false dichotomy. I’m saying voting between capitalist candidates in bourgeois elections is a nearly politically inert action. It could be worse than meaningless, in giving well-meaning people a feeling that they’ve contributed to positive change when they haven’t. Joining socialist organizations, organizing your workplace, socialist activism, those are actions that contribute directly to solving the biggest problem today. Why would a communist vote for an explicitly anti-communist politician? If you had to pick between a Republican and a fascist, which would you vote for?
Because they’re both anti facist and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
I don’t know who you’re talking about being anti-fascist. What if the enemy of my enemy is my enemy? What if you had to vote between two right-wingers? That’s the choice we’re talking about.
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I remember 2016. I put >$1000 on Bernie’s campaign, then it came out that DNC is a commercial organization that is not legally obligated to go with the will of the people. I actually voted for Hillary! In retrospect I wish i hadn’t. I voted for Obama’s drones, the wars in Syria, Libya, the troop surge in Afghanistan instead of ending the war. If it wasn’t for Trump i bet we’d still be in Afghanistan.
by not voting for Biden the reality is you’re voting for Trump
The same ol tired played out “I am a delusional moron” argument.
1 + 0 does not = 2, dipshit.
The REALITY of the situation is that both parties are the same. Both parties are genocidal. Both parties are stripping away our rights one by one. Both parties are making the rich richer. Both parties are making the poor poorer. They are working together to do this and then turning to the American people and saying “we cant work together, UwU!”
By not voting for Biden or Trump, I am not voting for Biden or Trump. Period.
I suggest others follow suit until we have vote worthy candidates, but I understand, morons like you are too addicted to the flavor of your parties boots.
I am voting disenfranchised. I am refusing to give Biden or Trump my voter turnout to advance their agenda.
I am making the only move that can force the end of the 2 party system.
I refuse to be a whiny little defeatist piss boy who votes for genocide and turns around and says “but they made me do it! There is nothing I can do about it!”
De-legitimize the 2 party system. Don’t become a fascist to fight fascism.
Not that hard, moron.
If you had a point, it was lost in all the needless insults. Grow up and try again.
irony
If Trump wins again, I am buying a one way ticket out of the country because I’m trans, brown, college educated, in a same sex relationship, an immigrant, and an outspoken liberal. His cult literally considers me subhuman and he is openly bragging about how he’ll turn the country into the next Reich.
If Biden wins, I don’t have to uproot my life and instead continue to be disenfranchised by a party of centrists and conservatives posing as leftists
They are not the same and anyone who tries to argue otherwise in this day and age is either stupid or malicious. Which one is it?
They are not the same and anyone who tries to argue otherwise in this day and age is either stupid or malicious.
no one is saying they are the same.
Non-participation doesn’t break the system, the system will happily chug along without you. Refusing to vote just means they can safely ignore you.
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