“I need my chicken to come in drumstick form or I can’t eat it” fuck you either own the murder or change your diet coward
So does this also mean I’m only allowed to drink femboy milk if I do the milking myself?
No, it means you’re only allowed to drink femboy milk if you would be comfortable milking a femboy
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As a vegan I can respect people that actually take the time to do this. That being said, I’d hate if someone pulled me underwater and ate me.
As a vegan I can respect people that actually take the time to do this
I don’t. It doesn’t matter how you murder them, you’re still needlessly murdering them.
If you’re equating a death in a factory farm to the death of a hunter, your goal isn’t to limit suffering.
You keep telling yourself that as you munch down on flesh you ghoul, I’m sure it helps with the guilt somewhat
Stopping hunters absolutely also limits suffering
sigh I’ve been a vegan since I left high school, when my parents couldn’t control my diet.
Vegans that make comments like this are why people hate us. This is coming from a dude that ran around London with a bucket of red paint looking for people wearing fur.
A hunter that kills a deer once a season isn’t buying beef from a packaging plant and not paying a capitalist to torture cows that may get wasted.
You or me aren’t going to stop humans from eating meat. That’s literally the key to climate change. But we can limit the suffering by not supporting factory farms.
Don’t left perfection be the enemy of progress.
A hunter that kills a deer once a season isn’t buying beef from a packaging plant
Yes they are. I know because my dad used to bag a deer every year. We still ate factory farmed meat, because fun fact, a single deer carcass is actually not big enough to feed a family for an entire year.
People hate us (us vegans, I mean) not because we’re rude on the internet, but because we’re living proof that humans don’t have to eat dead animals. We’re proof that it’s possible, easy even, to avoid paying for that suffering, and carnists hate that reminder.
I have no interest in being nice to carnists to be honest; in fact I disagree that it’s why “people hate us”. They hate us because they know they’re wrong, and everytime you eat with them they’re reminded of it.
Moreover, I believe being confrontational (which I was above when I assumed you weren’t vegan) actually works better than trying to be nice. Humiliating them publicly means they’ll immediately react badly, all dialogue will quickly be closed, but they’ll be embarrassed and IMO that leads to more reflection on that later on - in other words: for that topic, bullying works. I might be wrong, but I genuinely achieved better success this way.
Don’t left perfection be the enemy of progress.
I won’t pretend killing creatures for fun is acceptable in any way, sorry.
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I mean that all tracks. I’ve been a vegan long enough to know some people just don’t have the means. But when people tell me vegan food is too expensive I generally laugh in their face. I haven’t hunted since my teens. At this point I just go into the woods with a firearm just to justify the ownership.
I grew up helping my family ‘process’ cow and deer (and occasionally other game animals). It doesn’t especially gross me out, and I’d do it again if my choice was to butcher animal corpses or have me and my family die.
Luckily, I developed a functioning moral and ethical framework, and don’t need to eat animals or animal byproducts to live… so I don’t. I think its wrong, even if it doesn’t literally turn my stomach to think about doing.
And, I’m not the furthest off from being forced to eat animal products or die; I have a lot of food allergies, and my body seems like it likes getting more over time. Biggest struggle for me is being deathly allergic to all nuts and several seeds, but I’m okay with beans and wheat. Hope my body doesn’t take me 🫘 from me. But I really can’t eat from any restaurant, due to cross contamination.
Please stick to the cabbage and the leeks that you’re used to
I really like that brand so what is the meme saying is it confirming or challenging the virtue of my treats and goodies
Butterball or Tofurkey?
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humans breed billions of new “livestock” animals every year to perpetuate the cycle of carnage; trying to cast repeated forcible insemination and wide-eyed thrashing death in a blood-slicked abattoir, institutionalised torture on an industrial scale, as somehow compassionate is fucking disgusting
Agreed
I’ve been fishing before and cleaned the fish. Not really too difficult. The only reason I wouldn’t do it again is that fishing is fucking boring.
Turns out hexbear is 50% butchers and hunters huh.
Almost like we’re not all vegan, but respect those who choose a vegan lifestyle.
interesting…looking into it.I bought a bow to hunt the rabbits that were eating my father’s garden. I couldn’t do it so I just started leaving the dogs toys there so he would patroll the area more.
I’ve done some hunting and skinned a deer in my time. It’s not as stomach churning as you may think.
However what is stomach churning is what happens in factory farms. I’m not nearly as concerned with the slaughter as I am with the conditions the animals are kept in up until the slaughter
I just get meat from hunting, but I know a lot of people that just get their meat from local farms. I think it makes it a lot easier knowing that the animals get a good life, instead of how horrible those factory conditions are on the poor guys
I used to live on a homestead where we’d occasionally kill and butcher chickens after giving them a long happy life of running free on a large property - basically the “happy farm” every carnist likes to pretend they buy their meat from.
It was still wrong and I think back on that time really negatively - the killing at least. I loved taking care of those little dinosaurs and watching them run around while I smoked on the front porch. They should have just been pets.
May I ask did you take a liking to any of them? Like gained a special connection with one that you think about every once in a while.
Every one that I got to name. We had 40 chickens and 3 ducks so there was a lot to keep in mind, but I got to name one of the ducks and a few of the chickens, and they were my favorites. Especially the ones I named after commies - my housemates never knew why we had a duck named Tito, or that Emma’s and Rosa’s full names were actually Emma Goldhen and Rosa Cluxemburg.
But they were all pretty special, and even the ones I didn’t form a long-lasting emotional bond deserved better than being eaten.
“Emma Goldhen and Rosa Cluxemburg”
You’re my hero.
Family has kept birds for years that are essentially pets - it’s funny how chickens are written off as these stupid meat beasts when they each have individual personalities and quirks. Like, even the farm animals people feel less guilty about eating because they’re “less intelligent” are just individual lil guys doing their own thing.
Had some chicken pals for a while when living on a farm. No one at meat there and we did move the eggs into a section of the barn so there wouldn’t be egg bits making the place gross.
You are going to quickly arguing yourself into hopeless contradiction if you think this framing of intrinsic deserving as a variable feature and moralistic bullshit like that. Killing something yourself doesn’t make it better or worse, this argument just appeals to you because you know many people wouldn’t be able to. Wanting to make fewer people eat meat is cool and good, but vapid sophistry is not how you get there.
You are effectively murdering at least part of an animal by choosing to eat it. The average meat eater will kill several animals over the course of a year.
Living an unexamined life to prevent guilt about something you know you would feel is wrong so you can keep benefiting from that act being commited in your name is just as bad as doing the act itself but with the added element of cowardice and so is therefore worse.
Strip out the moralistic nonsense. Here’s an earnest question: would you eat meat if you had to kill it yourself?
The unfortunate thing is that it would probably still be doable for me if a butcher took it from there.
I don’t know man, there’s a lot of people out there who couldn’t stand killing an animal but eat meat and don’t see any problem with it.
Like this doesn’t gotcha people who hunt, because then the answer is “yup”. Hell I know quite a few hunting meat eaters who think similarly on the basis of thinking factory farming is fucked up.
hunting is also somewhat necessary to keep a stable ecosystem in many places (granted it’s also unstable because of human activities). If we need to shoot some deer or whatever every year I don’t see a problem letting those who did it eat the corpses, meanwhile animal agriculture should just be abolished all together
Active hunter but the whole thing about population control is mostly just us jerking ourselves off.
What would be way more effective is not eliminating the habitat of natural predators or ranchers killing wolves for daring to have the audacity of eating a cow the farmer doesn’t wanna bother fence in.
Pretty useful data to track populati9ns though.
I feel like there’s a point about how a lot of this is socialization of how food is procured. People in the US generally speaking don’t eat bugs since it’s a settler colonial state descended from Europe that doesn’t really have edible insects. In SEA though you’ll see much more insect consumption without a stigma because it’s part of what you grow up with and there are a variety of edible insects. Similarly, someone living far to the north will likely be very comfortable with hunting. In an industrialized society we’re very alienated from most of the production chains that go into our daily lives. We don’t pick our fruit and vegetables, we don’t toil on a farm, the food just sorta appears in a grocery store packaged for easy consumption which leads to people making videos where they’ll swear off fruit after dunking a strawberry in brine and seeing worms come out.
I feel like there’s a point about how a lot of this is socialization of how food is procured.
Consumed, rather, wouldn’t it be? I agree with your comment, but the procurement doesn’t even really play into it.
But other than that, yeah, even back when I ate meat I thought the “eww bugs” thing was dumb. C’mon man it’s just different food. You can’t hate on your boomer parents for refusing to try $local_large_immigrant_community_food because and then turn around and think eating bugs is disgusting
If you can’t stomach soldering fumes you shouldn’t get to use electronics. If you don’t acid etch your own circuit boards you disgust me.
Do components suffer in order to be produced into useful electronic devices?
You are giving the rocks the power to think. So I can only assume that they suffer
The doped silicon has played us for absolute fools
no but the workers do.
How does me killing my own meat stop animals from suffering? If anything OP is encouraging animal suffering. When amateurs kill animals there is more chance for the animals to have a prolonged and painful death. Encouraging amateurs to butcher their own meat will lead to more waste meaning more animals will die.
OP: I think “If not A, then not B.”
You: oh fuck they’re telling everyone to do B!
More like OP is saying “If you’re okay with eating meat then you’re okay with animal slaughter.”
Which, sure.
And then goes on to say, “You’re only allowed to be okay with slaughter if you do it yourself.”
lol y tho. If we’re just doing the debatelord formal logicgame, then the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise.
Because the personal confrontation highlights the inconsistency hidden by commodification and the abstraction of the food item. For many, support for violence against animals for entertainment purposes can only be supported by such a disconnect.
Personally, I think this point is obvious and hexbear is continuing to show its ass and internalized liberalism. I’m convinced that most people here don’t even do anything irl, so they should at least try to have basic empathy and understanding in lieu of that.
Personally, I think this point is obvious and hexbear is continuing to show its ass and internalized liberalism. I’m convinced that most people here don’t even do anything irl,
How does this post encourage any kind of political organizing? Making the focus of your political messaging on the hyper-individualist concept of personal choice, voting with your wallet, and consumer behavior is about as liberal as you can get. Consumer spending habits will never be a solution to the abuses of industrial food processing because those abuses are not a function of consumer demand. And if your proposed plan of action has no viable theory of change attached to it, then it is not a political position. It is virtue signaling, and nothing more.
You’re making a separate argument. The argument OP is making is that people shouldn’t be able to eat animals if they can’t butcher them. Which isn’t really a Vegan argument, or even an argument against making animals suffer since it implies that people should be able to eat meat as long as they have experience hunting and butchering. As someone else said
Killing something yourself doesn’t make it better or worse, this argument just appeals to you because you know many people wouldn’t be able to. Wanting to make fewer people eat meat is cool and good, but vapid sophistry is not how you get there.
Asking carnists to confront their own inconsistency is probably one of the oldest vegan arguments.
Like watching self-proclaimed “animal lovers” go on and on about how much they love bacon. Point out that the bacon is an animal with basically the same emotional and cognizant status as their dog and they get pretty upset. It’s the inconsistency that drives this response and it’s these agitations that lead to personal action.
Same thing applies to political agitation btw. We make agitprop intended to play on personal moral consistency like not wanting babies to get bombed, like thinking of themselves as non-racist, like “a full time job should be enough”, etc.
There are many people out there who would not slaughter their own food because they don’t want to harm the animals. There is an easy solution to this: make minor lifestyle changes. What prevents it is the decontextualization that prevents them from setting a red slab as an animal, the disconnect between primary production and their consumption, and a series of reactionary thought patterns that are reinforced by lefties just as much as, if not more than, their liberal counterparts.
Well if it’s intended as a rhetorical strategy to get carnists to confront themselves, then great. That works. I was arguing with it because it was presented as a reformist proposal.
I don’t even know how this could be a reformist proposal. What is being reformed, what’s the alternative, and how is OP proposing it?
never mind, you’re not the person I was talking to yesterday. I was thinking of a different conversation. apologies.
No biggie it’s all good
I think maybe you’re reading into my words a bit more deeply than I thought anybody would (though I am a vegan and you’re right, I do like the idea of setting a high skill floor on eating meat because I am a vegan).
My argument is merely that it’s okay to govern some treats differently than others because there are fundamentally distinct classes of treats and that therefore, proposing that people have to do the killing and/or butchering of an animal in order to acquire it is not analogous to requiring that people mine raw materials, process them into everything needed to produce semiconductors, and then build there own electronics “from scratch”.
Which isn’t really a Vegan argument,
Totally agree, but it would cut demand for industrial meat production so massively I have trouble rejecting the idea on these grounds alone
proposing that people have to do the killing and/or butchering of an animal in order to acquire it is not analogous to requiring that people mine raw materials, process them into everything needed to produce semiconductors, and then build there own electronics “from scratch”.
No they’re not perfectly analogous. But why “propose” anything? If you’re Vegan why not just say “people shouldn’t eat meat, carnists can get fucked”? Proposing a change in the rules of how meat should be eaten is just a reformist half measure. And the truth is you’re not going to get anywhere without revolutionary activity. If you really had the power to enforce the rule that people can only eat meat if they butcher it themselves, then that would be reflective of a society in which a revolution has already happened. But we don’t live in that kind of society. Nobody is going to pass that law because we live in a society run by carnists and capitalists. If you truly lived in a society where you could force the rules to be that, then you might as well just make eating meat entirely illegal at that point.
For sure, and “people shouldn’t eat meat, carnists can get fucked” has been said elsewhere
right, and “people can still eat meat as long as they kill it themselves” is a step backwards from that, as far as proposals go.
Agreed. It’s also better than what we have now.
Do components suffer
They may start soon
Everyone should learn how to solder. It gives them more of an appreciation for the equipment they use, and brings them closer to being able to repair or tweak or reinvent their own electronics.
Saying that you should participate directly in the production for yourself, and that this should be normalized, is not the same thing as saying that you should produce everything for yourself on an individual batch level.
Surely you’re trying to miss the point.
I think breathing solder fumes is disgusting. I pay for someone else to do it for me and they don’t get paid well. My using electronics is contributing to humans dying for pennies. How is that more ethical than paying someone to process meat instead of doing it myself?
If you want to talk about poor living conditions and inhumane slaughtering practices I cant argue against that. You want to debate that all living animals have a right to life I’ll ask why don’t plants have that right. But the OP’s argument is silly and not a solid argument against eating meat.
I have killed and butchered my own chickens and I have gotten pretty good at it but there were a few near the beginning that didn’t go as smoothly as I’d like. If anyone really cares about the suffering of animals they wouldn’t be encouraging amateurs to do it just to prove they are worthy of eating meat.
I think breathing solder fumes is disgusting. I pay for someone else to do it for me and they don’t get paid well. My using electronics is contributing to humans dying for pennies. How is that more ethical than paying someone to process meat instead of doing it myself?
Do you think someone breathing poison for pennies on the dollar is how it should be? Probably not, right? But you can change those. Better pay is possible, as is better working conditions. It’s just the option ain’t really there for meat
You’re talking yourself in circles.
OP’s point is very simple: many people do not confront the unnecessary violence in their habits. Commodities are decontextualized, as you’re attempting to say. To many, animal products just don’t seem like animals and they get very upset when they truly understand those products as being other thinking, feeling things. OP is challenging people to go through that exercise and, hopefully, recognize that they do actually care enough to make minor habitual changes and not kill the animals for entertainment purposes. They just hadn’t confronted it sufficiently.
Personally, I think you and others do understand this. Very few questions, lots of rationalization.
Re: your disgust at soldering, it’s obviously not the same. You’re not morally disgusted or upset by the existence of soldering fumes, which is the confrontation in OP’s post. You’re changing the basic nature of the disgust from discomfort at the idea of killing another thinking being to merely reacting to a smell. I think we all understand that these are very different bases of disgust and that the moral disgust has a component evoking personal moral consistency while the other is a simple physical response.
You did try to find a way to talk about moral consistency in consumption, as all leftists do when confronted with doing something immoral at the personal level that involves consumption or production. No ethical consumption under capitalism, right? No ethical production, either! Individualist. Moralizing. These thought-terminating cliches get trotted out whenever a lefty wants to avoid addressing these kinds of issues and it’s always highly selective. The same person will hate cops or get pissed about someone they know building baby-killing bombs for money or carry out one-person boycotts because they hate one particular company.
Anyways, the kernel of truth in your example is that you know it’s wrong that someone else is underpaid. You haven’t really said that you think the fumes are a problem for the workers doing the work you’re avoiding, so there’s nothing implied to be wrong with that. In bb fact, you didn’t explore what the alternatives would be at all, because this isn’t a serious attempt at counteepoint. But differential exploitation, especially with such vast differences due to imperialism, yes that’s something we agree should be abolished.
If we make your analogy fit despite the other flaws, that would make you someone who thinks the vegans are right but you’re personally not making your own changes.
Does that describe you? The vegans are right about all of this but dang it, you just can’t make the change?
I doubt it.
The point has been fully grasped, the point just happens to be very silly.
Then why are all the criticisms premised on basic misunderstanding? Are you saying parent is dishonest?
They aren’t, but if you would like expand upon what you believe is misunderstood instead of just asserting that as a premise you are free to do so, and I may reconsider my position depending on your response.
I’ve personally already replied to several comments if you are interested. Maybe you should go read the thread before assuming I’m merely making assertions.
ngl you shouldn’t get to eat meat regardless of your feelings about violence towards animals
Not meant as a gotcha, but how do people expect that to work without enforcement from above? It seems like you kind of need a state to enforce and realize something like that. I’m mostly referring to anarchist/vegan societies here. While you could have a socialist/vegan state, I have no idea how that could work in an anarchist society. (I’ll fully admit I don’t know much about anarchism, so anyone who knows more, feel free to enlighten me.)
If there was a product that functioned in a culturally appropriate way at the store no one would really care what it was made of. So, all it would take was the government to ignore one lobbying group and we’d be set.
I’ve butchered birds before and I’ve butchered deer before.
I’d butcher them live in my house if it was cheaper to buy them live. All my poultry is bought as the whole dead bird and cut on my countertop to save money.
I think they’re talking about people who would never ever do it cause it’s icky, but will eat meat. I don’t think OP’s expectation is that people would butcher their own meat in all circumstances
That would mean only absolutely creepy meat enjoyers like Mark Zuckerberg get to eat meat, because they already get off to butchering.
That would mean only absolutely creepy meat enjoyers like Mark Zuckerberg get to eat meat
Wasn’t Mark Zuckerberg’s thing that he’d kill the animal but couldn’t be arsed to butcher its corpse? Like, he’d boltgun a goat or something, then send the body somewhere else to be stripped and cut up.
Maybe I misheard: I thought he was talking about how exciting it was to do the butchery part.
In the case of the goat at least, he just did the killing. >The Facebook founder served a goat he’d raised, killed and sent to the butcher.
