“For most markets where DoorDash operates, customers are prompted to tip on the checkout screen, with a middle option already selected by default. If they want to, they can adjust the tip later from the status screen while awaiting their food, or even after it’s delivered. That’s changing today; while blaming New York City’s minimum wage increase for delivery workers, DoorDash announced that for “select markets, including New York City,” tipping is now exclusively a post-checkout option”
It seems so ridiculous given tipping fatigue, that DoorDash is making what should be a given sound like a negative.
I hate all these gig apps. Use them as little as possible.
Which is never. They don’t provide anything you can’t get with a tiny bit of effort.
If you’re drunk or stoned, it’s much better to order some delivery than to drive anywhere.
Obviously you could plan ahead to avoid this, but I would rather have gig apps than impaired drivers on the road.
I have this alternative app called ‘Phone’. It can do anything the gig apps do: order taxi, order food… that’s pretty much it. “Yeah, but where I live all the good restaurants don’t deliver any more, you have use gig apps”. Yeah, and where I live they do because people don’t use gig apps that much and everyone is happier. You were to lazy to call and now you have to deal with the shit apps. You made your bed…
And talk to a human? Pass
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iopq has the right of it, have you ever had to experience when their meat flaps make noise? Yuck.
I’m sorry, have you actually had mostly pleasant experiences with real humans? Must be nice. Are you with the life complaints department? Yes I’ve had multiple bad interactions with real people and would like to file a complaint.
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You are being voted down by people like me who generally try to shun interaction with other people. I’m no misanthrope, but in my 30+ years of living I’ve not met many people I would always interact with when I have a choice.
I’m being voted down? Good thing my instance doesn’t have down votes.
And if someone doesn’t want to talk to people that’s fine, use the apps. Just don’t complain that the apps got shitty. That was the plan from the start. You had to be stupid not to realize that the moment they got rid of competition they will start squeezing everyone hard. The choice was always between talking to people or giving full control to bad actors. People made their choice, now live with it.
If the establishment has their own online ordering system, I always try to use it rather than things like door dash. If they don’t, I will not call them instead. Maybe that’s just me though
Tipping should be optional, a bonus for a good job. Not a subsidy for billionaires who can afford to pay their damn workers triple what they’re making.
But for food delivery services like doordash the tip is a bid to have someone deliver the food. Tbh I dont think the market for it is sustainable. But it’s not really a tip anymore.
Isn’t it the purpose of a “food delivery service” to have “someone deliver the food”? Why should anyone need to pay extra to get people to do the bare minimum?
Because it’s the gig economy. All door dash provides is the app. That’s it. The less they pay the people who do their driving for them, the more money they get to keep.
Exactly, they are contractors accepting your bid to do the job, the price it takes to get a delievery is dependant on what the contractor is willing to accept.
Well, it’s a pretty ingenious way to get all the DoorDash drivers in Ny to quit I guess.
Was that their goal?
Unless they weren’t averaging $17.96/hr before this happened, in which case they might stick around
They weren’t.
I don’t get how this even benefits doordash. It wasn’t costing doordash anything to route the customer’s tip to the driver, was it? That money came directly from the customer, it didn’t come out of the fees doordash collects. So whether or not the customer tips is immaterial to DD’s bottom line, and this only hurts the drivers.
Why are they punishing the drivers for something the state did? Honestly vile.
This was my take. A business bro is having an entitlement tantrum and is taking it out on the only people that they can get away with hurting.
Companies like Uber, Doordash, etc. think they’re more important than they actually are. They want their drivers to quit in a “Oh yeah, well if we have to pay our drivers a minimum wage now then we don’t want to do business here,” sense. As if delivery services actually help local economies and don’t strangle small businesses and exploit vulnerable job-seeking people. Good riddance, I’d love to see more cities run these companies into the ground.
Frankly the model of ordering directly from a restaurant who had their own delivery drivers was better.
I’d imagine that the people who choose to work those jobs would rather prefer to make that choice themselves instead of random people telling them that they’re being exploited actually and so now they’re jobless, but maybe they don’t actually know what’s best for themselves.
Their “goal” was to get drivers to stop delivering in NYC so then drivers would complain and put pressure on politicians to reverse the min wage rule. They believe they’re offering an essential service and it’s disruption will make people rise up to their defense. What’s really going to happen is that people won’t give a shit and just move on to the next thing.
I’m about it. They pay more wages and people should be tipping cash anyway. You don’t know if doordash properly pays out tips
They do pay out tips, because they got sued over not
So they didn’t and now pinky swear that they do now.
This is the way it should be everywhere. I’m sorry but tipping before the order is even delivered creates a fucked up incentive with the drivers and the people getting food. Especially when apps like DoorDash make it very apparent. Who tipped well before they even pick up food. The tip should always be rendered after service.
The tip should be rendered never, people should be paid a living wage.
I’m fine with a tip for over and above service, but otherwise yes I agree.
Worth noting that this will absolutely destroy the gig economy (which I’m kinda also fine with, tbh) and things like food delivery we see today. There is a reason very few businesses delivered prior to the delivery apps.
close but not quite. Tips are given for excellent service. It’s an extra added bonus for going above and beyond. It should not (and as far as I’m concerned) is not used to pay a person’s base wage.
Your statement is accurate and reasonable for servers, who are employees of the restaurant, and are guaranteed to earn at least minimum wage.
But we are talking about delivery drivers. Drivers are generally contractors, not employees. There is no minimum wage for contractors. Further, contractors are responsible for their own expenses. The IRS says a mile of travel costs $0.655. DD typically pays a base rate of $2 per delivery, whether around the block, or 20 miles away. That $2 fee covers 3 miles of expenses, which is about a 2-mile delivery, plus travel to the store.
Typically, the driver ends up paying all of the base pay in travel expenses. The only part of his compensation he actually gets to keep is the tip.
Minimum wage at restaurants in my state is $2.13 an hour. In such cases, it absolutely is used to pay someone’s wages, which is fucked up, IMO.
minimum wage at restaurants in washington state is $16.28 starting next year. It’s $15.74 right now. They still expect a 18% tip. Should I just say fuck it and not tip?
Yes
my mindset is that if minimum wage is already a given, then I should be tipping a lot less than standard. Though doing so gets you shit treatment in future visits because tipping is more of a bribe than a remark on good service. Remarkable how all this works, isn’t it?
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If a server’ wage plus tip does not federal minimum wage, the business is required to make up the difference. I’m not saying the $7ish an hour federal minimum is a liveable wage.
What makes this extra stupid, is this means the first $5 or so each hour in tips only removes the obligation from the business owner and does nothing to help the server.
Yes, I agree the whole system is dumb and convoluted intentionally.
That only applies to employees. That does NOT apply to contractors. There is no minimum wage for contractors.
There is no “tipped minimum wage” for most delivery drivers. DD does not have to pay one thin dime if the driver doesn’t make enough tips to reach minimum wage.
Further, the contracted worker is responsible for their own expenses: the IRS says a mile of travel costs $0.655. DD’s usual $2 base pay covers only the first three miles worth of travel expenses, even if the actual travel is much more than 3 miles. I regularly see 12-mile trips with $2 to $2.50 base pay. The driver pays $8 to make these trips; the first $6 of the customer’s tip just goes to expenses before he actually earns anything.
You’re just cheap.
It’s an extra added bonus for going above and beyond.
That’s simply not the way it works and you know it. It’s been enshrined as a tenet of economics at this point.
Honestly, I completely agree with this.
Tipping should be a bonus, something that happens once in a blue moon. Not the norm.
This has always annoyed me about food delivery services. Tips are supposed to be reflective of the service delivered. How can I know if that service is going to be good before a driver is even assigned to my order? Prompt after the delivery to add a tip.
Secondary note, if a company cannot pay their employees a living wage without tips than said company shouldn’t exist. Nobody should have to rely on tips to…you know…exist.
Tips are definitely not the answer, but…
if a company cannot pay their employees a living wage without tips
Actually, where I live, we don’t have a tip, but companies won’t even if they can. The sad truth is that businesses won’t without pressure. They just call it a social problem, weakness of their country, whatever.
It’s a false assumption.
Again, I believe tips are not the answer.
So, I deliver for DoorDash from time to time, and it’s made me change how I view tipping in these apps.
I’m not tipping for quality of service (it’s hard to be ‘good’ vs ‘great’ on pick up, drive, drop off as a service, and if the driver manages to do that badly, DoorDash will make it right for you and ding the driver). Instead I’m tipping based on quantity of work, e.g., the distance I’m asking the driver to cover or the size/weight of the order if it’s something like groceries. While this is something that DoorDash should be doing, it’s not and is left to the customer to close the gap voluntarily.
DoorDash likes to act like they’re just connecting customers to people that want to make a delivery, but they’ve set up the system to feel like DoorDash is the service provider rather than the drivers. In reality, drivers should be setting their fees as independent contractors and DoorDash should only be providing the interface.
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Wat. If an order isn’t getting delivered (your words):
if a driver sees no tip, your order is last in line if it gets delivered at all.
Than that’s an even BETTER reason that tipping should 100% be eliminated.
And the best reason Capitalists should pay a living wage; not slum wages, actual living wages.
I should not be effectively bidding for better delivery service. Lol
I agree. Pre tipping is not a good idea.
I also tip in cash whenever I can. Less chance of middlemen stealing it and “server” can decide to declare it as income or not.
Never offer cash tips on delivery platforms. People occasionally claim in their delivery instructions that they will pay an additional cash tip; nobody actually does. Talk to any driver and they will tell you the same: cash tippers are non-tippers.
Drivers can’t even see your offer of a cash tip until after they have accepted the offer. If you don’t offer a tip at checkout, your cash-tip offer is completely indistinguishable from a no-tip offer.
Ah man this company is being a real cunt and for that reason we should reduce wages.
… What? What is the goal?
Shifting all of the cost of their employees on to you like any buisiness that can get away with it.
This doesn’t do that though. It makes it harder to tip.
How is that a protest? That’s actually a good thing.
I DoorDash regularly. I frequently get offers so low that it’s not worth it in gas+time to deliver them. There’s a chance that a lowball offer will tip me after the fact, sure, but it rarely happens, probably only one time in ten.
If the initial offer doesn’t tip, and not just tip but enough to make it worth it relative to the travel distance and time, then I don’t accept it. No experienced driver would, and no driver should.
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I can do both! Doordash really REALLY should pay more. But also, practically, I can’t take offers that are not worth it economically to do so. And I can only decide to do that with the information I’m provided before I take the offer.
I’ve been asked to drive a total of 24 miles (12 miles there and back) for $3.75 before.
Yup same, my bare minimum was 9$ on the guaranteed screen so that worked out to about a 6.50$ tip from the customer (Assuming DDs totally reasonable 2.50$ base pay…)
Ofc I also maintained 1-2$/mile minimum (depending on my mood lol) so if you aren’t within a couple miles that guaranteed order amount would need to increase accordingly.
DD should just call “tips” what they really are, a blind bid.
Tips are an excuse for employers not to pay their employees a livable wage. If you rely on tips to get by, your employer doesn’t deserve to be in business.
I’m 100% for not tipping in USA. But the bastards that own the restaurants and company’s won’t pay these people what they deserve. Time for nationwide strike in the restaurant/food delivery industry imo.
I never tip and hope that voting with my wallet will cause more people to realize that they should be fighting owners, not customers or employees.
Hopefully you never eat at the same place twice, either.
Or else what?
“That’s a nice meal you have there. Be a shame if there were some bodily fluids in it.”
I’ve worked in food service before. Committing felonies by tampering with food is exceedingly rare, and not something people tend to do just because they don’t get tipped.
I watched my manager spit in chicken sandwiches at KFC when I was a young cook there. Imagine what I didn’t see?
I think it’s more common than you realize.
Did he at least have a reason?
Did you report them?
I think it’s more common than you realize.
Because you saw 1 instance at 1 location from 1 person? Lol.
Not a risk I’d be willing to take.
Well, then you’re paying the price.
The only tampering I ever saw was when the owners visited and ran their mouths.
Hey, good principled stance… I guarantee literally every server, and I mean absolutely every one, thinks you’re the asshole and they are 1000000% not thinking about the realities of the tipped industries when they see the bill with a zero percent tip.
Also, I kinda think you’re the asshole if you’re dumb enough to believe that you, the one you, is somehow going to change tipping culture in America by not tipping.
I’ve been to restaurants with mandatory 20% tip included in the bill and let me tell you, I don’t even know if I got service worthy of 10%. It seems to be more of a cultural problem though. Even when their salaries are covered, American restaurant service is pretty lackluster. Without the carrot on the stick, it doesn’t seem like they’re even willing to try.
Working in a restaurant is probably one of the most consistently hard jobs in the US. It takes like 3 times the amount of energy that the average office job does. I don’t think you are getting bad service because the people that are serving you are just lazy, they certainly wouldn’t be working in the food service industry if they were lazy.
As someone who’s first job was washing dishes, I would argue it’s more than 3 times if it’s even a moderately busy restaurant. I have a cushy office job now and hands downs I still think waiters work insanely hard, especially because they’re on their feet all day.
I’ve worked in restaurants too, mate. I get that it may be a lot of work, but the experience also let me know that the service I’m getting is usually pretty subpar. I don’t mind tipping good waiters, but they are pretty rare outside of fine dining. Lazy waiters, like lazy employees in any other job, are always going to be a plague on their industry.
Time for nationwide strike in the restaurant/food delivery industry imo.
That will never happen, because the truth is that these folks do make more from tips than they would from any sort of overall wage increase. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, tip-receiving workers tend to favor the tipping system in my experience.
Yeah, really tipping should be replaced by being partially paid on comission, not just a flat wage increase.
That will never happen, because the truth is that these folks do make more from tips than they would from any sort of overall wage increase. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, tip-receiving workers tend to favor the tipping system in my experience.
This is a major reason why I, personally, don’t tip. Those who like working for tips need to understand that they are not entitled to tips.
Then fuck tipping because it’s a non legal added tax on my food. How about that?
You’re preaching to the choir; I’m just pointing out that expecting tip-receivers to strike to end tipping culture and secure higher base pay for themselves is a pipe dream.
then don’t order out?
Or else what?
Is the job shortage this bad where people can’t just go work elsewhere?
Have you ever applied to a job? It can be an exhausting experience especially when you always have to do it after getting out of work from you current shitty job that exhausts you to the point that you would rather do anything else than think about work.
I’ve been working since i turned 14. I’m in my early 30s now. I’ve been through many jobs and never really had an issue finding work. It has a lot to do with the area of work, region, luck, time and fuck tons of charisma to make yourself stand out. I moved countries and counties. I’ve been through the gauntlet of retail, healthcare and freelancing / contracting. My perspective is skewed because of it, my question wasn’t dismissive, I genuinely never had a downtime or could afford to be without a job for even a week. But I’m not from the States, I’ve got no idea what the market is like there, I can only speak for my experience on the other side.
Apologies if it looked disrespectful.
Not the person you replied to, but here’s my story.
It took weeks for me to be able to get my first job. I would either “fail” those online tests to see if you’re a “good fit” for the company or I would not do well in the interview. I finally got a job, but it involved working overnight.
My second job kinda just landed in my lap. A friend of mine let me know about a job opening at the place they worked at. I applied, interviewed, and got the job. (I suspect my friend talked with the person who decided to hire me, but I’ve never asked him to confirm.)
I was eventually let go from my second job. I spent a few weeks recovering from the shock of being let go. (I had what I think was an anxiety attack from it, and, since I didn’t know what was going on at first, it only got worse as I started to get more anxious from being anxious.)
After I got better, I applied for my third job. I spent a few weeks applying to jobs but, again, kept failing the personality tests or the interviews. Eventually, I was able to get another job, though. I actually got it pretty easily because it was a similar position to my first job, just at a different company.
Yes “Nobody wants to work”
More like nobody wants to hire
It can be exceedingly difficult to find a job for a lot of people, yes
The reason they won’t pay is specifically because people tip.
Well, and people are willing to roll the dice and accept work where tipping is an essential part of their income.
Forced to. People are forced into these jobs…
Stop perpetuating the system by accepting that it’s required to accept these positions.
When there is no social safety net, and you need money to live you can’t afford to be picky.
I find it interesting that there’s been this vocal movement to “100%” eliminate tipping across the board. It’s worked very well for us for generations until now. I don’t think tipping is the problem.
The problems include services that inflate prices and want fees on top of tipping (DoorDash), customer-facing point-of-sale systems making it easier to prompt for tips (Square. Toast), and the general drive towards and acceptance of consumerism allowing for all these things to take place (plastic and mobile over cash). Not to mention inflated costs of living and stagnant wages.
Tipping in and of itself is fine. It’s a win-win-win for the consumer, the worker, and the business. But it’s insulting and a hinderance on the consumer in the context of all that’s going on in the world today. In this regard, I share in the frustration.
If you were to make a stand and choose not to tip at a restaurant, your immediate impact is going to be on the worker who relies on that tip to support themselves and their family. Collectively, this movement is going to hurt the lives of individuals and potentially impact the local economies.
I share the belief that businesses should pay their workers a fair wage. However, in the restaurant industry, the businesses who’ve tried this have largely failed. Paying a fast-casual dinning or fine dinning worker the same as a McDonald’s worker isn’t going to bode well for customers expecting a higher level of customer service. Of course, this opens the conversation to the minimum wage laws and what’s proper in this regard.
I agree somewhat that we should “strike” on restaurants and food delivery. But I say so in favor of us being more self reliant on ourselves rather than constantly being consumers of other’s goods and services. Eating out / ordering in should not be something that we’re doing so often that it’s impacting our personal finances. It should be done in moderation (at most) and afford us the opportunity to pay those doing the work for us a fair compensation for their efforts. Our money should going towards people, not companies - certainly not DD.
What I’d like to see a measure on is consumerism and compensation in the US compared to countries that don’t have tipping. I wonder if non-tipping countries eat out / order in less and if they have different regulations about fees. I’d also like to see a measure on the average wage and income compared to living costs. So, is someone working at Applebees (for example) in the US making relatively the same in the UK when accounting for their cost of living? How much do Americans spend on leisure, what do we define as leisure, compared to other countries? How do government support systems compare? What does the tax structure look like? I’m just not so sure it’s a fair 1:1 comparison if you want to do what other countries are doing (not to say I oppose those systems).
I like tipping. I refuse to be nickel and dimed. I have a bigger problem with streaming services constantly raising their prices and inflated DD and Ticketmaster fees than I do tipping. Canceling all my streaming services, my Prime account, my DD account (and eating out less) affords me a bit more money to be a good tipper. Paying in cash sometimes gets me a discount and allows me to have a more positive impact on wait staff.
I see the non-tangible appification of payment as a bigger problem - and I see rampant consumerism as the primary issue. And I believe the government knows this. They’re pushing towards a cashless society because they know how easy it is to thoughtlessly click a button to transfer money from one entity to another.
the businesses who’ve tried this have largely failed.
See most nations outside the US
Paying a fast-casual dinning or fine dinning worker the same as a McDonald’s worker isn’t going to bode well for customers expecting a higher level of customer service
Then wages can be set to match the establishment and expected level of customer service.
I’ve eaten at restaurants outside the US and prices are not ridiculous. However, US businesses assert they’d need to be. If it’s truly going to set prices outside the affordable range for US customers I’d like to compare restaurant balance sheets inside vs. outside the US. What is costing US restaurants so much money that they have to pay their employees so poorly?
I’ve already responded to your comment in my comment that you’ve commented on.
I think you are giving business owners too much credit with your questions. Businesses and the rich like to spread FUD that anything taking any money from their pockets will destroy the economy.
Much like Covid showed us that working from home was totally doable for many office jobs, I’m sure some some forced elimination of tipping would show that it’s completely possible to adjust to that change.
So better minimum wage laws also encourage businesses to make their user experience less hostile to users? Nice.
Remember DoorDash’s decision to change their interface to stop asking users for more money, when they inevitably point to their riders and say minimum wage laws have reduced their income. They knew the riders in the areas affected by better minimum wage would benefit greatly if they left the experience as it is, and they don’t want that used as evidence in other states for their own minimum wage laws. This us why they haven’t changed the interface for other states, where their riders are still living on as little as DoorDash can legally get away with paying.
i mean i do hate tipping, it creates an uncomfortable power dynamic, having to sort of…‘bribe’ them like with these gig apps to get them to take your order sucks (versus like a proper pizza shop where you have 1st party guys who know the area and ups and downs of the job), menu prices and the shitty fees are already a joke, it’s just miserable all around
but i’m sure the minimum wage increase is little esp in NYC - it probably just feels like it cancels out. overall there needs to be better reform on this. depending on tips sucks
Fuck tipping but this is just DoorDash being petty.
I mean fuck tipping though tbh
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You’re still paying them, just less directly. It’s not like a restaurant goes to a money tree to get wages for its employees; it’s the same money you gave them for your food. You can price that cost directly into the menu items or have it be a separate tip, but the only effective difference is vibes.
That’s why I refuse to use self-checkout.
I prefer self checkout for several reasons. And I agree with you - let’s pay workers a living wage. That being said, I don’t put 100% of the financial reponsibility on employers. I feel we (the consumers) need to acknowledge that employers aren’t the sole beneficiaries in this system. Translation; I want a living wage policy to be implemented but also I realize that this means an increase in the price I pay for (some) services. With this in mind, maybe I should receive a discount for using self checkout. Alternatively, how would you feel about being charged directly for the amount of time required for a “checker” to scan your items & ring you up? For example if you paid $0.33/minute this would cover a $20/hr wage.
Disclaimer: This “shared responsibility” can’t be universally applied across all goods & services; employers don’t get carte blanche to pass 100% of these costs onto the consumer. A living wage policy might entail some sort of agreed upon “max profit” policy or “open books” / transparent finances approach.
I feel giving free labor to a multibillion corporation is wrong and no it does not mean we have to pay higher prices. It does mean we can demand c-suite and board members to do without a
dinnersummer home or few.
What does self-checkout have to do with this paying your workers? Not using it just means you have to stand in line on regular checkout. That’s not benefiting anyone.
You want to give a multimillion corporation free labor so the cfo can buy a new private jet, that’s your prerogative. It’s not mine.
I’m not British. Waiting in line is labor, not the national sport. It is something I would rather not be doing, but I am forced to do as a condition of acquiring my groceries.
Self-checkout takes much less labor, valued in the only way that menial labor can be valued: time.
What? And what does being British have to do with it?
What free labour though? The act of using the little scanner before you put the items in my bag? Yeah, I’d rather do that and go through checkout in 5 seconds than watching someone else scanning my grocieries for 2 minutes (which I then have to put in my bag again).
I’ve someone else get’s a private jet because I save time … well, that’s just a win-win.
you do realize that most large chain grocery stores cut back on check-out lanes because of self-checkout, right? You have to wait in line if you don’t want to use self-checkout because of the cutting back. You’re not saving time. You’re just waiting extra or resigning to checking yourself out. It’s shittier service and you know it.
I prefer the option to check myself out. I’m not sure why you’re trying to argue about “resigning to checking yourself out” to people who like it. Those self-checkouts that weigh everything are awful but I haven’t seen one of those in a while.
I don’t go grocery shopping for service. I go to get my groceries and go home. I am capable of scanning my own groceries and prefer not gambling on if the bagger knows what they are doing.
I prefer scanning my own groceries to the point where if there’s a line for self-checkout and an open staffed checkout, I’ll have a closer look at the self-checkout situation and will wait if it looks like it won’t take very long.
Unless it’s Walmart as their self-checkout is usually a busy mess and more fickle than the ones at the grocery stores I go to.
No idea what you talking about, I’m definitly saving time. Even if there was no line at all at the regular checkout, self checkout is still faster, by a large margin.
At regular checkout a person has to literally pick up every single individual item again and scan it. Even if they are fast, that takes 1-2 minutes. It takes 5 seconds on the self-checkout to scan the mobile scanner and pay with the CC.
Self checkout is the best thing that happend to shopping.
you know, when I was a kid, safeway used to employ enough employees such that there were no lines for checking out. Well, they got bought out, self-checkout became a thing, and now there’s always a line. During peak hours, you get to wait in line for self-checkout and watch people slowly check themselves out like it’s somehow still a brand new concept. You’re celebrating the decline of service and claiming it’s the “best thing that happened to shopping”. That’s so sad.
The way I see it, I’m either going to be “checking out my groceries”, or I’m going to be “standing in line”, watching a cashier work.
I don’t see a compelling reason why I should spend more of my valuable time waiting and watching someone do a job than just doing that job and moving on with my day.
You do you.
naw, man. Look at it this way: if you’re checking yourself out, you’re doing labor for them. Maybe every once in a while, you pay yourself a candy bar. Because fuck’em.
Waiting is also labor.
I am spending my time at a task I don’t want to be performing, because it is demanded as a condition of acquiring something I want.
Both are menial labors, requiring no skill. The only way to value them is by time, and “waiting in line” takes much more.
