You must log in or register to comment.
I’ve always found it ridiculous how farmers are considered unskilled. Like just anyone can balance on a moving trailer while throwing hay bailes around. It’s just soo easy to take a tractor apart and back together again because a gasket blew. It’s so easy to have a biggillion different skills varying from field to field. Literally everyone I know can run a mile while carrying a sailt lick. Farmers are just dumb and untalented. Am I right. /S
Since when is farming considered unskilled?
Quite often in films and books farmers are often depicted as dumb guy with funny twang accent. Also farmers are also depicted in the picture above. Yea it’s trying to say all labor is skilled labor but hey OP felt the need to include farmers in the picture.
Not the farm owners. They are usually the capitalists.
But “everyone” picking manually asparagus or strawberry or wine grapes is usually from a low income country or an illegal work, working for pennies.
In the past there probably was more manual labor that couldn’t be automated, so there were many jobs in farming that would be considered unskilled. I would guess that there are many fewer jobs like this now.
Are you confusing farmers with farm labourers? One runs a highly specialist business, one just needs to pick strawberries.
Picking strawberries is hard when your back, feet scream for pain every time.
deleted by creator
What about supervising? All I can tell what they do differently to everyone else is sit at a desk and forget to order stock.
Unskilled just means pretty much anyone can do it. McDonald’s, Walmart cashier, warehouse worker, etc.
You don’t need any sort of certification or training. Yes, you need to be “skilled” in that you may need to be physically fit or friendly in social settings, there are definitely plenty of people who are not suited to warehouse work or being a cashier, but if you are suited you can generally start right away with minimal training.
It’s still disingenuous to call it unskilled, though. Even those jobs require rudimentary skills that not everyone has. If we diminish the value of these skills, we’re just devaluing people even further.
What do you want to call it? Just curious, we love to criticize but not offer suggestions
I got into an argument with someone about this. I ended up proposing generalized versus specialized.
Unspecialized is a bit less dismissive of a term
Generalized would be a good contrast to specialized that generally lacks biases.
Why try to draw an arbitrary division like that in the first place? There are a lot of “skilled labor” positions that don’t actually require any certification or training. And there are a lot of “unskilled labor” positions that do require training. It kind of just seems like a way to dismiss certain types of labor as “lower” than others, at least that’s how the term is used in a majority of contexts.
Having to cater to your customers’ every need and socializing, keeping eye contact or regulating emotions are necessary skills for a cashier job, yet a mentally disabled person may not have those skills due to their disability. Do you guys just casually forget autism or personality disorders exist?
Technically i am an “unskilled worker” because i did not finish university. Didn’t stop me from being the guy who develops the network chips in the company.
- thats not what unskilled worker means, technically or not.
- I’m happy for you but
- weird flex on a post about the less fortunate
Regarding 1.: in my country, sadly it does. No fancy paper telling that you can do X means “can’t do X” even if you can show what you have done. In way too many places.
the fuck is a network chip? why not just use a low power sock running an embedded Linux router? one statement raises so many questions!
they do exist but are typically made by vendors like Broadcom
You’re not getting the necessary thoughtput with a low power socket at the critical infrastructure.
you can put a lot through modern~ish socs
Sometimes, data must be transmitted and received in a more precise way that a normal Ethernet could ever do. You see, those robotics people think “realtime” means to have a message delivered within a millisecond.
In my system I know where the bits are down to five picoseconds. This requires technology that is a tad more complex than just throwing a dumb PC at the problem (even if it runs Linux).
I have never heard of a job that required no training in order to do it. That’s learning a skill. And if you’ve already trained yourself in how to do it, you’ve still learned a skill. I can’t think of a job that you can do without any training whatsoever.
You and I have definitely worked for totally different companies then.
Where have you worked where a job requires absolutely no training whatsoever?
The difference is if you require a degree or license or some other certification of non-career training prior to being considered for the job.
It’s a matter of degree. Comparing the training of a delivery driver or custodian to that of a doctor, engineer, or professor is, frankly, just stupid. This is what is meant by skilled versus unskilled labour.
No one made such a comparison. Again- any training or education is learning a skill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 8 years in a university or 8 hours as a dishwasher. There is no job I can think of that doesn’t require at least some training or education. Can you?
Jobs with minimal training required are unskilled labor.
Was that so hard to understand?
“Minimal training” = learning a skill.
It is skilled labor.
Fucking breathing is skilled labor by your definition.
No. Being trained to do something is learning a skill. It’s that simple. I’m not sure why that isn’t clear to you yet. How many more times do I need to repeat it?
Ok fine. We want to be obtuse. Let’s separate it into minimally skilled and more skilled.
It sounds like you’re taking issue with the terminology and not the concept.
Unskilled labor being the kind you learn on the job and any normal human can be trained to do, vetsus skilled labor that requires university/apprenticeship/trade school. It’s hours or days of training compared to years of specialized training.
I don’t like this particular turn of phrase either, but here we are.
Yes, that’s what the investor class thinks. They are wrong.
Yeah I doubt it. I can flip any burger you got, you come design my machine learning algorithms.
Another approach is to divide unpleasant work evenly under everyone who can do it like in the novel The Dispossessed. This will be less efficient since each one needs to acquire the skill and won’t reach perfection because they don’t stay long enough but to hell with efficiency.
So yes, it is skilled labor and if you call it “unskilled”, you have no excuse not to do it from time to time.
There’s also the fact manual labor is seem by Anarresti as something to be proud of.
Also, Chevek doesn’t directly mention it in the book, but in reality some people simply enjoy hard jobs and would gladily do them if they can make a good living out of them.
True but I doubt it would be enough.
“How much am I getting paid?”
“It’s unskilled labour, so not much.”
“Then I’ll do something else that pays more.”
“But then this won’t get done!”
“You can do it yourself.”
“I’m too important for this!”
“So the work is not important?”
“It’s very important, it needs to be done or we’ll be in shit up to our necks!”
“So pay me as much as this is important.”
“I won’t, it’s just unskilled labour. WHY DOES NOBODY WANT TO WORK ANYMORE?”- a tale as old as time itself.
The crux is here.
Then I’ll do something else that pays more.
What separates skilled from unskilled labor is that the unskilled labor force have no skills to do something else that pays more.
While I support the idea that every job should pay a living wage, the idea that there shouldn’t be a difference in pay based on the rarity of the skillset of the employee of question just isn’t workable in am open market society.
This is why they’re legalizing child labor.
If we’re taking about making the till scanner in the shop go beep, yeah, that doesn’t take extensive training and can be done by the next hungover 16 year old who stumbles in off the street. I’ve been that 16 year old, it was great.
This image is daft, assuming the other trades are unskilled. They’re undesirable, sure, but you can’t do them with 15 mins of training and another hungover moron in the back office “supervising”.
Except it’s literally just an economics term referring to positions that can be reasonably learned through on the job training with little or no prior experience.
Stuff like this just muddies and distracts the conversation from the true issue, which is that those jobs deserve a living wage.
Well don’t you think we should fix misnomers? Also, “it’s an official term” is a poor excuse. Terms change and evolve all of the time.
Tons of jobs can be taught with on the job training with little to no experience. There’s a reason unskilled labor typically refers to food service and blue collar work, while white collar jobs are typically considered entry level.
We can fix two things by the way. Complaining about multiple issues under a larger umbrella doesn’t “muddy the water.”
For the record, I don’t totally disagree with you, but don’t you think capitalists at the top would rather people spend their energy arguing about the economic terminology rather than fighting for workers rights?
They would happily call it just about anything if it meant not paying workers more.
Which alternative term do you propose?
people definitely use it in a derogatory way though
Yeah I don’t care if the jobs are literally no skill, that shouldn’t matter when it comes to paying a living wage.
The only thing that matters is how many hours it takes up in a persons day.
Also, unskilled jobs still end up generating experienced laborers who are worth being compensated for that experience.
The whole point of the term unskilled labor is that it isn’t.
If you’re on an assembly line and you’re putting part A into box B, it takes an afternoon to learn and you’ll be about as fast as someone who’s been doing it for 30 years.
Either part A is in box B or it isn’t. The difference between the best person and the worst person that’s still worth employing is very small, and probably can’t be trained.
You don’t pay extra for someone with experience putting part A into box B.
But they should be paid a living wage.
deleted by creator
It’s far more complicated, what is the ROI on the multimillion dollar robot to do pick and place, how long before a packaging or dimension change requires reprogramming, or you stop making part B and instead make part C that the robot needs to be adapted for. How much does labor cost.
There’s a quite a few parameters to analyze, but it is frequently cheaper and makes sense not to automate it, and instead pay someone to stand at an assembly line instead.
But then the whole automation thing…. Good for skilled labor (the people building and programming robots and automated assembly lines), not good for unskilled labor. If you’re not qualified or unable to learn another skill, it’s one more job that disappears.
You’ve literally just described every job that exists everywhere. It’s a bullshit term to other and denigrate certain groups.
Lol sure. Are you ready to be an architect or a biochemist or an ironworker or a paramedic?
After a decent apprenticeship, a lot of people would.
No shit, the apprenticeship is the exact thing we claim makes a difference.
We can argue where exactly we should draw the line: Is a two year apprenticeship required to qualify as skilled labor? Or is 6 months enough already? Maybe even a one month training course can be considered enough to learn a skill. But the fact is that some jobs require more training than others. And this distinction is worth making in some situations.
I worked in unskilled Labor before, a few minutes teaching so I know what to do, maybe two hours supervised to make sure I don’t fuck up and that’s it.
An apprenticeship is enough to be a biochemist? Lmao go touch some grass.
I don’t understand the need to dogpile on someone who is simply stating that jobs needn’t be divided by skill because all jobs need skills. Racking hay and stacking it up is a skill. Picking and sorting the good from the bad fruit or veggies is a skill. Interacting with mean and disrespectful people who couldn’t care less about your feelings and pretending to be friendly is a skill. Flipping burgers before someone yells at you for taking more than two minutes is a skill.
Obviously, their argument with the biochemist was wrong, and they were misguided, but why the need to pray on their downfall? It’s useless to divide jobs, because they all have skills.
Training is training regardless of how you receive it isn’t it? Perhaps you should take your own advice.
An unskilled job can be learned in an afternoon. That’s the difference.
Said someone who’s never mastered it. I have a college education myself. And work in IT. I’m just not that much of an egoist to disrespect people like you do. I’ve met truly skilled and great people doing menial jobs and not being compensated enough. You wouldn’t last a week at most of these jobs. You feel you could master in an afternoon. Simply because you’d be dealing with people like yourself.
I’ll keep my surgeons having gone to med school tyvm
They literally used to apprentice them. They still could. They don’t but they could.
Do you want a 19th century surgeon?
If I were in the 19th century? Sure. We could still train them that way today even with all the knowledge we now have. It’s only the knowledge that’s outmoded. Not the method of training.
The method of training has severe deficiencies including the absence of standardization. Also surgeons still have apprenticeship they just have to go to med school first
The current method of training has severe deficiencies as well. Often saddling people with 6 to 7 figures of debt. And in the medical field specifically having them work shifts defined by people originally hopped up on meth and cocaine. I’d take a well rested and healthy surgeon any day over one that’s sleep/stress/drug addled.
Oh and there were literal trade groups that set basic standards most times. Listen it’s your prerogative if you want to argue training isn’t training. It isn’t a very defensible position however.
A lot of jobs can’t be learnt on the fly. They either need prior training, or significant on the job or prior to work training. Those jobs will, by their nature earn a premium (basic supply and demand).
There will always be low skill jobs, and that’s ok. The issue is that they are now so poorly paid that you can’t survive on them.
E.g. an office janitor is an unskilled job. It’s easy to get a new person up to speed on-the-fly. A janitor on a medical ward is low skilled. They require more training, but it can be on the job. Cleaning a surgery theatre is a skilled job. It requires a significant baseline of knowledge to do it right. This requires off the job training.
None are bad jobs, and all should be paid well enough to live on. However, the more specialist roles should also earn more, since they have higher requirements.
So you’re saying training isn’t training? That’s a bold claim. Can you prove it?
And if you think an office janitor is an unskilled job. You’ve never met many good custodians. It’s easy for anyone to go into any field and do a shit job. But whether or not you acknowledge it. Being good at something takes skill regardless of what it is. Even the migrants picking fruit in American fields are highly skilled. Or are you telling me that in less than a single season or week you could match or better them?
I think you’ve forgotten about pilots and surgeons and such… not exactly OJT material.
You could hypothetically have on-the-job training for a surgeon, but it takes a lot longer and gets very expensive. That’s probably why they divide it up into pre-med, med school, internships, fellowships, etc. That and it means that companies don’t have to absorb all of the cost of training new surgeons. Maybe it’s not the ultimate solution to the problem since some doctors have difficulty paying off their loans. Unless you are in a highly paid specialty, you could be repaying your loans for many years.
I think you made a non-sequitur. They never said anything about that. Simply pointed out how all jobs require knowledge and training of some sort to be good at them. Perhaps in the future you should debate in good faith and not create straw men to push a false narrative.
And you don’t think the ruling class weaponizes the terminology to prevent wage increases?
Any labor is skilled labor. The only difference is training time.
I think that’s a far more useful way to look at it than a simple binary of skilled and unskilled.
I’m a bit fuzzy on how the continuum really relates to wage, because ultimately it’s a question of supply and demand.
I guess if you have a rarer skill because it takes longer and is harder to acquire proficiency at, demand will be higher so you won’t go for jobs that are easier to acquire the skill for, thus, jobs with a bigger supply of workers? And so that drives the pay offered.
deleted by creator
To deny the existence of unskilled labor is pure delusion and it alienates people who haven’t drank the koolaid. Instead argue that unskilled labor must still be compensated with at least enough money to be financially secure, same as all full time employment, regardless of what it is.
If you work full time, you shouldn’t need to worry about money. That’s it. Don’t say more.
all labor requires skill, which is why I reject the term “unskilled”. In a world in which the value of a person is determined by the value of their labor, calling a job “unskilled” carries the implication that people that are only capable of that labor are worth less. However, that’s secondary to the point this post is trying to make and you clearly recognized: everyone deserves a living wage.
I mean… I get what you’re trying to say, but I think your passion is misplaced. It’s a nice thought, of course everyone wants to feel valued for their labor.
Certain labor is worth more than others. And some labor does not require any skills. These are facts. Picking something up and moving it over there does not require any skills unless you want to get silly and say that basic human coordination is a skill. There are jobs out there for simple manual labor like this.
Everyone that works full time deserves a living wage. Funnel your passion into that point, not the one that is objectively incorrect and will sway people away from your main and very valid point.
deleted by creator
some labor is worth more than others
Duh
some labor does not require any skills
Wrong.
picking something up and moving it doesn’t
Yes it does. Proper lifting technique, the muscles to lift whatever it is, coordination and balance to not drop that shit, likely math skills would be involved in such a job, likely written language skills as well.
Just because you can’t think of the skills it requires immediately doesn’t meant there isnt skill being used
All labor is skilled in some way, thus all labor should be paid fairly.
Dude. Yes. I was trying to think of a way to say it, but you nailed it.
No matter what you do, as long as you’re contributing something (if you’re able), you should be able to make a living and not worry about food and shelter and healthcare and the ability to learn new information.
If you go out of your way to learn a difficult skill that requires years of work and training(engineering, medicine, agriculture, etc) then what you do is absolutely skilled labor.
That’s the entire point of the post.
All labor is unskilled labor, but compressed in some manner. Labor is just actions, if those specific actions must be trained, then that training is compressed labor.
Unskilled means you don’t need prior skills before being hired. That’s all.
It doesn’t mean someone doesn’t become proficient, or even great at the job while they have it.
As a person with a fucked up back, a strong back is a skill. Don’t tell me ditch diggers and porters don’t have skills.
You can teach a ditch digger the skills to dig a ditch the day you hire them. Hence they are an unskilled hire.
A strong back is an ability.
So what you’re saying is it takes a day to reach someone the skills to be a ditch digger?
So it’s skilled labor?
They’re unskilled when they get hired, skilled after a day of training. Might not be a lot of skill required, but that’s still not 0
The definition relates to the day of hire. The seeking of new employees. Not the state of those employees after x amount of time working.
Some of the boxes here are too simplistic.
Being a mason, a brick layer, is skilled. But to hire a new person to the crew is unskilled. All they do is carry things, and clean up.
Experienced masons take years to develop, and sometimes include professional certification and education. That’s skilled labor.
deleted by creator
But to hire a new person to the crew is unskilled. All they do is carry things, and clean up
Both of which are skilled tasks. Is it as skilled as the bricklayer? No.
Does it take 0 skill at all? No.
Incredibly simple concepts that it’s funny to see people unable to grasp
Literally watching you not read the definition of the word. You are ascribing your own value judgement on the situation.
An UNSKILLED hire is someone you could hire from anywhere, anyone at all. No prior exposure to the task at all. That’s it. That’s all it means.
If you need to hire a bricklayer who can produce at a high level, to exacting standards, and with knowledge of regulations and best practices, you can’t hire just anyone. You need a SKILLED hire, because you need that employee to start at a veteran level from day 1.
It does not matter how you build that employee, what they learn, or how masterful they get after say one. That’s not what the label refers to. Even if they become the best grocery bagger ever, if you could fire them, and could hire a rookie and get passable results on day one, that’s unskilled labor.
Back to the bricklayer, if you hire an unskilled rookie, they start off carrying shit around and cleaning up, but you eventually train them, they then becoming proficient and skilled at bricklaying, great. That employee can now either request skilled pay/a skilled spot on the crew. Or they can go apply to other companies that demand a skilled employee.
That’s it.
Bagging groceries or carrying things is “unskilled” even though a person could get pretty good at doing it.
Seem here:
How easy it is to manipulate idiots that don’t understand subtext.
This is such a dumb take.
Even USSR had a difference between skilled and unskilled workers
Ah yes, the shining beacon of workers rights that was the USSR…ffs
This post is about unskilled job be a capitalist mith right?
One of these days I won’t mix up the comment on comment vs comment on post buttons -_-
…for a different comment:
I wasn’t acting surprised. I thought we were having a discussion about moving to a new place for higher wages and how it wasn’t sustainable using teaching as an example.
I’m not sure the direction you’ve gone.
Telling me “I knew what I was getting into” is a null excuse. Yea, I knew the pay. I want to teach. I deal with the shit pay because it’s all I can get. Because “I knew the pay was insufficient”, I’m unwise to have become a teacher.
That is a very misdirected excuse that districts completely from the fact the jobs dont pay enough in the first place.
