(CW: Discussion of self harm and the description of the execution)
Something seems wrong here. What nitrogen does is replace the oxygen and CO2 in your lungs. Our self preservation instinct doesn’t actually respond to a lack of oxygen, but a build-up of CO2. Because of that, nothing is felt when it’s all replaced by an inert gas (which, being inert, doesn’t do anything to your body directly). It’s actually a popularly recommended method among euthanasia advocates and as far as I can tell is the quickest, most painless, most peaceful way to (CW) commit suicide. If I eventually do it, it’s probably going to be with that method, but with Helium since it’s much easier to get.
With all that said, nitrogen shouldn’t cause the reactions described, so I have no idea how they happened. My best guess is that it was his last (purposeful, not instinctive) attempt at saving himself. Which seems like it would be present in every method where they’re conscious at the start. But that doesn’t fully match with the “spasms and seizure-like movements”.
Regardless, while it’s probably the best method for someone who wants to die, clearly it doesn’t seem great for executions. Of course executions aren’t great in the first place, but one where the person is at least quickly anesthetized might be the least inhumane.
Edit: maybe he wasn’t thrashing purposefully, but rather tried to hold his breath (or both), which meant the nitrogen didn’t quickly replace the CO2, so he experienced the typical form of asphyxiation before the nitrogen could do anything. That would explain the deep gasping breaths at the end, he couldn’t hold it any longer. That also explains why he was alive and moving for at least two minutes. Inert gas asphyxiation is supposed to be quicker than that afaik.
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This was exactly my thought, and holding his breath would explain it really well. Which I guess is a problem with any inhalant method of execution.
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I guess a potential “solution” (other than not executing people in the first place) could be to put the tube directly in their mouth in some way that they can’t remove it. It would probably be pretty uncomfortable, but not necessarily painful. But I guess it might appear a little brutal.
And they might fight against having it put in their mouth, but that seems like a problem for literally any execution method.
Edit: or just anesthetize them first. Is there a way to anesthetize that can’t be resisted with painful results?
I would guess the problem with anesthesia is it’s actually pretty complicated and things can go wrong with that step
Yeah anasthesis is complicated and you run into the same issues trying to buy those drugs that are already making prisons seek out this execution method. You could just as easily cause toxicity and overdose or run into a allergy to the drug and then the execution will again be botched becuase the prisoner has to be in good health before the “proper” method of execution is delivered.
It’s just so fucked.
Yeah, plus doctors and nurses won’t do it which means you’re relying on untrained pigs.
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Could you not just like, overdose them on heroin? Maybe followed by nitrogen for confirmation? Or of course you could just not execute people.
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but we’re pretty damn sure consciousness ends immediately
I thought the opposite was true, that heads have been observed to be alive for a couple seconds after.
But yeah, anything involving mutilation or destruction of the head is just so uncomfortable to me.
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CW description of animal testing on rats, dogs, and other animals
I think a lot of accounts are exaggerated and/or mistake muscle contractions for consciousness. But the brain is intact and still has oxygen in it for a few seconds, so there’s no reason it should die instantaneously. The idea of a “head in a jar” or a head transplant does have some possibility to it, albeit very difficult and extremely likely to fail. But theoretically if you can reconnect the head to the relevant arteries or whatever in the few seconds before total oxygen deprivation and brain death, it could work.
It’s a contentious topic, but there have been multiple studies indicating it could be true.
The implication that severed heads may, however briefly, retain the capacity for life has been supported by a number of unusual experiments over the past century in the field of head transplantation. In 1908, Dr. Charles Guthrie performed the world’s first canine head transplant, in which he attached one dog’s head onto the throat of another dog, reconnecting arteries so that the host provided blood flow to the newly-attached head. Of note, this procedure took approximately 20 minutes, and while the transplanted head displayed some simple reflexes, it quickly deteriorated [10]. Dr. Vladimir Demikhov, one of the founders of modern thoracic surgery, repeated a similar experiment in 1954. The heads that he transplanted displayed complex behavior and survived for far longer, up to 29 days, likely because of the significantly shorter time they were without blood flow [10]. Dr. White took the field a step further in 1970 when he performed the first “cephalic exchange transplantation” in primates. Although this transplant involved cervical spine transection of the animals and thus continuous respiratory support, the two heads displayed a normal awake EEG pattern after the surgery [10]. In 2015, Dr. Ping Ren performed a similar experiment with mice, and in one notable example, was able to keep the animals alive for six months [10]. While the science-fiction trope of a "brain in a jar” is impossible for the time being, these experiments clearly demonstrate that the long-term survival of a transplanted head is quite possible. This, in addition to the 1975 [7] and 2013 [9] studies discussed above, suggests that there is no functional difference between the brain of an executed human and the brain of an intact human, for at least several seconds post-decapitation.
— https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9930870
(Emphasis mine)
If a head can be transplanted as those studies indicate, it must be alive for at least a few seconds.
The same paper gives arguments against the idea of retained consciousness (right under the section I quoted), but the studies mentioned in that section still seem to indicate about 3 seconds before unconsciousness in rats.
Like I said above, from a logical perspective it makes sense. The brain is kind of the only thing that directly matters in regards to death. Every form of death besides direct damage to the brain is ultimately the brain dying because some system required to keep it alive failed. Since the brain isn’t damaged and still has oxygen in it, it should be alive for those few seconds before the oxygen runs out. I think direct and widespread destruction of the brain is probably the only way to truly guarantee near or effectively instantaneous death.
continuing from the last block, but getting kind of off topic and into very dubious unscientific speculation on my part
That’s possibly why destruction of the brain makes me more uncomfortable than other forms of death, immediate cessation of the self feels wrong, like the brain should be allowed to have a couple seconds to process the fact that it’s over.
I’ve seen a (non-scientific) theory that the idea of “heaven” could actually be the brain releasing endorphins upon death to make those final moments blissful. If true (and again it’s a completely non-scientific theory with no real evidence to back it up afaik), I think everyone would deserve to experience that instead of dying immediately. It could explain some people who have near death experiences claiming to have seen heaven. But I don’t know if the short time the brain is alive is really enough for that theory to be true.
They should expect he’d hold his breath, of course you would, so it still means the method doesn’t work and is cruel.
Definitely. They either need to find a way to prevent breath holding or just use some other method.
Or just stop executing people, but we know that one isn’t going to happen any time soon.
of course you would
I think if it was me, and they explained how it worked and told me holding my breath would make it painful, I wouldn’t try to hold my breath. But I 100% understand and empathize with the reason most people would, meaning the method needs revision or not to be used.
But unfortunately this is probably leading people to believe that inert gas asphyxiation is a violent painful event when it’s actually one of the most peaceful methods for those who want or accept it.
An important thing to note: This is your well reasoned decision, when you are not facing the imminent prospect of death.
When you’re sitting in that chair, strapped down, the eyes of everyone in the gallery staring at you with hate (or even worse, bored disinterest), the guards busily preparing your murder around you, refusing eye contact, knowing that in a few minutes they’ll be carrying your cadaver to some unmarked grave, your heart racing, pounding in your ears, the murmur of medical devices, the beep beep beep of a heart monitor you know will soon be silent.
Under these stressful conditions you might not be consciously able to breathe deeply, the lizard brain may take over to extend what little time it has on this Earth.
I guess that could be true. Somewhere between deliberate action and pure instinct automatically triggered by a specific chemical circumstance. I still kind of think I personally would go with it, but I guess it’s a “what would you do” where an obvious answer isn’t always so obvious in the moment.
Like the trolley problem, the logical answer is to switch the tracks, and I think I’d do it, but maybe something in the moment stops me or makes me hesitate just a little too long. You can never really know unless it actually happens.
It’s wild that they just don’t give the guy a shot of fentonol. The one drug every cop knows is fatal and they don’t use it.
looking for a new execution method
ask the executioners if their method is fast enough to not think about or agonizing suffering
they dont understand
pull out illustrated diagram explaining what is fast enough to not think about and what is agonizing suffering
they laugh and say “it’s a humane execution method sir”
use execution method
its agonizing suffering
it’s moments like these where i’m astounded that i can regularly wake up and go about my day in this society like it isn’t the most damnable nation to ever stain this earth
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imagine what had to go horrifically wrong in his life for him to enact that kind of violence on others
monstrous behavior doesn’t just magically arise out of thin air
I hope you die like this guy did
scum
And I would gladly see you go suffer the same way he did you fucking animal
He was still a human being why would you ever advocate to increase the amount of suffering in the world. That’s disgusting
What did this guy say to me? they scrubbed it from the modlog
He was just jerking off about how much he’s happy for the suffering basically
When hanging or firing squad are more humane alternatives, god damn america, that’s in the bible.
Absolutely horrific.
At this point it’s trite to say that if this had happened in any other country, there would be incessant media outcry about it. That goes without saying. What I think is interesting is the nature of these experimental execution methods (god what an awful phrase). Who are they for? What is the purpose of this?
We can clearly see that it’s not to make it painless for the inmate. It’s also not to make it more efficient and quick, the guy choked and thrashed around for ten minutes. So what is the point of even experimenting with ways to kill a person? Is it merely supposed to be bloodless, to make cleaning up easier after the fact? A firing squad is quicker and relatively painless, because the person dies in a couple of seconds, rather than minutes, but it does make a mess.
I just don’t get it. If that person should die, then why go through all this fucking trouble when you can just shoot them, or alternatively shoot them up with enough fentanyl to kill a horse? Bullets and fentanyl are cheap. Cheaper than nitrogen gas, I presume. Sometimes it feels like the sadistic fucks in charge of this theater (and it is a theater, curtains and all) are just trying some new shit to see what it will do. Experimenting for its own sake.
Firing squad is messy, fentanyl I’m guessing being a controlled substance/opioid makes it a no go. I remember reading a few years back that the EU was ceasing the export of the chemical traditionally used in lethal injections in the U.S. so my guess is they’re experimenting with a replacement they can source easily.
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Critical support to our doctors and nurses, who realize that “do no harm” includes participating in state sanctioned murder.
my guess is they’re experimenting with a replacement they can source easily
can confirm as a burgerian that this is indeed what is happening
so my guess is they’re experimenting with a replacement they can source easily.
This is precisely it. The reason lethal injection is so commonly fucked up in the US is because there is no standardized cocktail of drugs used. It varies literally prison by prison, and doesn’t even need a physician’s approval. I can’t remember where I read it, but I recall reading about one state where the drugs chosen were chosen by the prison warden solely by vibes
and doesn’t even need a physician’s approval
Never gonna get a physicians approval since physicians take an oath not to kill people. That problem comes up a lot, as soon as the people giving you the drugs find out you’re using it for lethal injection they go “What the fuck what’s wrong with you no you can’t have more”
Firing squad ruins the veil of civility, and it also makes the pigs get PTSD from THINKING they killed a man. So instead we have to play Mengele to give it some kind of civil and scientific legitimacy
We can clearly see that it’s not to make it painless for the inmate.
I think it was actually. As I described in my main comment in this thread, inert gas asphyxiation is painless. So I think the intent was indeed to make it painless.
They just didn’t take into account that the person might hold their breath, causing them to experience normal asphyxiation from the remaining CO2 in their body. Or they did take it into account by just telling him not to hold his breath or something, as if that would stop him from doing so.
Gas asphyxiation is often painless/quick because you dont know its happening. Kind of impossible to do though once you tell someone your gonna smother them in a room and they wont try to save you. Who wouldn’t get a panic attack and hyperventilate over that?
Inert gas asphyxiation is painless because it doesn’t cause a build-up of CO2, instead replacing both the oxygen and CO2. Your body only responds to a build-up of CO2, not a lack of oxygen. And the gas itself, being inert, doesn’t directly do anything to your body. Hyperventilating would probably just help speed it along.
Holding your breath however completely defeats the point because you burn through your oxygen, it becomes CO2, and it doesn’t leave the body because you’re not letting it.
Not that the blame is on him for holding his breath, I completely understand. It just shows that while this method would be great for euthanasia, it’s not so good for execution. I hope it isn’t demonized and banned for use in euthanasia because of this.
Interesting. Thanks
It’s some Mengele/Unit 731 shit
This is disgusting. I have no words to express how fucked this is.
In bad country, condemned criminals are dispatched by AA gun, unlike us enlightened countries where we slowly choke a man to death while they desperately try to hold on for a few more seconds of life.
Might as well just tie him to a weight and chuck him in a pool as doing this.
It just seems so obviously cruel on it’s face, this outcome was always coming.
I thought breathing some gases, like helium, are a peaceful death, because your body does not realise it cannot breathe? (ie the feeling of suffocation only arises from a buildup of CO)
Or is nitrogen a different deal? Not to say I would support the execution otherwise.
That’s true in theory, but it doesn’t account for the fact that most people don’t want to die and will hold their breath to try to live a little longer.
go upthread a great hypothetical behind the CW and spoiler tags
Part of the issue might also be that they just used a cheap one size fits all mask instead of something that took a modicum of fucking effort. Nitrogen asphyxiation is used in parts of Europe for medically assisted suicide, so it can be done humanely, but the procedure requires more than just slapping something you ordered on Amazon on a guy’s face and calling it good. Of course, the people undergoing it in Europe have also chosen to die, and aren’t struggling to hang on for ten more seconds. Fuck this place.
Death to America
For a crime older than I am, was there even any justice served at this point? The man wasn’t actively a threat to society and was instead used as an experiment subject. The only cases I’m even sympathetic to execution are of the monsters that lead to hundreds of deaths through social murder or negligence, but in the western world you just gotta pay less than a single PS5 to the families to get off the hook for that kind of shit and even then just lock them up.
For a crime older than I am, was there even any justice served at this point? The man wasn’t actively a threat to society and was instead used as an experiment subject.
Amen. In my view, punishing people for crime is never about justice and always about sadism. Justice is social. Social justice. We should get at the systemic root causes of why crimes are committed in the first place and reduce the rate at which they are committed by addressing those systemic causes. But the false “justice” of the sadistic vigilantes and the reactionaries is to leave the root causes of crime unaddressed, so that they have a never ending supply of convenient scapegoats. Why put an end to things like poverty and addiction when those things are profitable? Why reduce the supply of criminals when you can make a lucrative career out of “defeating crime” by sadistically capturing and punishing individual criminals? These people don’t want crime to go away, they want to broaden the definition of crime so that they can capture, enslave, and execute as many as possible.
The only cases I’m even sympathetic to execution are of the monsters that lead to hundreds of deaths through social murder or negligence
Those are precisely the cases which go unpunished because they are crucial to the reproduction of the system as it currently exists. But even this can be addressed systemtically: By getting rid of a system which rewards sadistic vigilantes (cops, judges, prosecutors) with power and prestige.
I would add all C tier executives and board members (and shareholders that hold enough to be just below the board) in any and every company that is large enough to be multi-state/national. Especially those that create the “too big to fail” situations like banks and investment funds. Also including of course the entities that treat basic human needs like housing as stocks to be made more and more costly. So would mean landlords, HOAs (especially those that are not even actively living in the area covered), and fuck it, just no trial required for the insurance (medical and other) and pharmaceutical companies. Along with the politicians taking any money/stocks/kick-backs from any of the groups mentioned (though I am also fine with just literally all current and previous leaders of both false parties).
just fucking shoot them god damn “the cruelty is the point”
I decided to look into the previous execution and I am now fully
Copied from Wikipedia:
CW for horrific violence
Despite the fact that Smith had a motion to stay his execution pending before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit, at 7:45 p.m. on November 17, 2022, a lawyer for the Alabama Department of Corrections emailed Smith’s lawyers to let them know they were preparing him for execution.[13] Smith spoke with his wife, and at 7:57 p.m. prison guards ended his phone call with her.[13] Smith was handcuffed and shackled and taken to the execution chamber.[13] Two minutes later, at 7:59 p.m. the Eleventh Circuit issued a stay of execution, which Smith’s lawyers immediately provided to the Alabama Department of Corrections.[13]
The Department of Corrections replied that they had received notice of the stay, but did not inform Smith or allow him to speak with his lawyers, instead keeping him strapped to a gurney in the execution chamber.[13] At 10:00 p.m. the execution team entered and attempted to place an IV into Smith’s arm. At approximately 10:20 p.m. the United States Supreme Court lifted the Eleventh Circuit’s stay of execution. Smith told a member of the execution team that they were inserting the needle into his muscle, but the team member told him that was not true.[13] The team then moved Smith into an inverted crucifixion position and left the room, returning after a few minutes to inject him with an unknown substance, despite Smith’s objection.[13] Another individual began repeatedly stabbing Smith’s collarbone with a needle, attempting to place a central IV line.[13] The results were unsuccessful and at approximately 11:20 p.m. Smith’s execution was called off.[13] Smith was unable to walk or lift his arms on his own, and was sweating and hyperventilating.[13] This marked the third consecutive botched execution by the state of Alabama.[13]
It is a moral obligation to flay everyone involved.
How are they so incapable of killing someone what the fuck? Like just do a firing squad Jesus Christ
One thing I read a while back that made sense to me was that the reason executions are so often botched is that real doctors won’t take part in this dumb shit so you only get the lowest CHUD “doctors” performing them.
Firing squads are all bloody and messy and would make the executioners feel icky
Innovating new methods for killing people isn’t about making the killing more humane, it’s about assuaging the guilt of those doing the killing
And the guilt of those watching it from the comfort of their homes
The Fr*nch invented a perfectly humane and reusable execution method for their royals and Americans keep inventing shittier, more expensive and inhumane methods of execution so some private company that harvests nitrogen or makes lethal injection chemicals can make a buck
Holy shit
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