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- cross-posted to:
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There’s a lot of nuance and discussion that is just ignored by online people regarding this discussion. I’m sick of the fighting.
Change your horrible voting system. FPTP is the root of all this craziness
and here you are ignoring nuance 😭
no one disagrees with you. no one is in a marriage blood pact with FPTP. people are trying to abolish FPTP but it’s taking time and definitely won’t be done within seven months. the pattern of commentators like you coming into a discussion saying “just do <the obvious>” is about as useless and meaningless as a vegan trying to brigade a barbecue subreddit, or telling a person struggling with gas payments to buy a tesla.
I have been saying this for years. I have written it on countless message boards throughout my time online.
There isn’t really any nuance to it. Change is hard, I understand. Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try.
must not be loud and frequent enough since it hasn’t happened 🤷♀️ whatever would we do without you by all means continue
In other words, I should shut up?
genuinely just reconsider your strategy. you’re wrongly placing blame on the voters as though they have ever been given the option to fix their horrible voting system.
i stand by my comparison that it’s like you are telling a low income person struggling to finance gas to just buy a tesla.
It’s been changed in some states. Someone somewhere must have heard it and thought it was a good idea.
Sharing ideas online is a first step. The alternative is that people don’t mention it, and that seems worse.
I wish but not happening in a million years.
Both sides love it because it means they don’t actually have to make improvements to win over their base.
Multiple Democratic state parties and advocacy groups endorse Ranked Choice Voting, so shut the hell up with the both sides nonsense.
Multiple Democratic state parties also oppose it. The DC Democratic party for example voted against RCV last year, and that’s not an isolated case.
I think that’s an oversimplification. If they’re championing RCV, they’re doing a really lame job of it.
I mean, of the two states that actually have approved RCV for the presidential race, one is Dem and one is Republican. Republicans are actually one of the largest users of RCV, there’s a number of states where they use it for their primaries. They may be the most outwardly hostile to it, but let’s not pretend that Democrats are championing RCV.
Maine and Alaska have implemented it, if memory serves.
Shh, silly facts! Almost like the youth trying to turn things around shouldnt be impeded right as theyre trying to come into power.
Agreed. We’re getting some traction on this but it is absolutely not possible for this year’s presidential election. This is a long-term goal that should not affect your voting this year.
And next election you will say THE EXACT SAME THING. It’ll never be the “right time” unless it’s all already falling in your lap. Democrats suck because they completely lack initiative. They think that unless they control the House, Senate AND Presidential office that “it’s impossible to get anything done!”.
Nah, those high up are perfectly happy with this and you’re just feeding into it.
Those high up are happy, no one else is. Do u not see the disdain literally everywhere? And the largest (by far) generation the country had ever seen grabbed a hell of a stranglehold on our seats of power in government and labor institutions. The right time is nigh upon us. Its blind to deny it.
I mean…yeah? If 2028 rolls around and we don’t have ranked-choice voting (or similar) for federal elections, I will say the same thing. And I will be objectively right.
Don’t stop pushing for ranked choice. What you can do today is write to your representative about the Fair Representation Act, which includes provisions to require ranked choice voting (for congressional elections). That is a the natural next step. This is not an overnight process.
But let’s be real: politics does not move fast enough for anything we do today to affect this year’s presidential election. Honestly, if anyone tries to fundamentally change the election system this close to a presidential election, they are surely corrupt. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. If you wait for the whole world to change before taking a step, you’re going to be waiting your whole life.
removed by mod
Do you seriously think that NOT voting is somehow going to accelerate change?
I’m glad you’re angry. You should be. But there are ways to channel that that are NOT self-destructive. You don’t have to choose between voting and advocating. That makes no fucking sense.
This is true and by design.
votes 3rd party because why would I vote for a genocide funder or an insurrectionist
spoiler
yes yes do go on and tell me how genocide abroad is better than insurrection at home instead of actually trying to change the system.
EDIT: U.S signs off more bombs, warplanes for Israel
Yeah, definitely a candidate worth voting for amirite.
Do people not get that Biden is eradicating the Democratic party’s leftist and progressive organization and overall electoral future with his policies?
Local and state elected democrats are facing backlash from a) a genocide and b) massive Israeli lobby primarying every single elected official who isn’t cheering on said genocide.
Every single progressive and leftist politician in office is facing a choice: be run out of office or flip on your constituents like Fetterman. Very few are taking the most suicidal political position in America: not supporting Israeli.
Freak out on people criticisizing Biden but those who politically organize should generally see how ignorant these arguments are that ignore the ramifications of policy beyond presidential elections.
It really does feel awful. Either vote for an old geezer who keeps sending weapons to a terrorist state committing a genocide, or an orange old geezer who will do all that but will also be an authoritarian dictator. Like what the fuck is even going on anymore. Something has to give.
Oh wow, Biden didn’t actively help the genociders one time!!! Wow! That’s certainly means that he has an actively been helping them this entire time. Dude grow up.
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
Lmao. LinkOpensChest.wav is constantly going on about how mods are persecuting him. How ironic.
The rule that I was banned under was:
- No defending oppressive systems such as capitalism or the US “democracy.”
I can’t even tell whether to complain that it’s weird to tell me I can’t defend democracy, or that it’s weird to call “it’s bad to let the Nazis come to power” a pro-system-of-oppression viewpoint.
(I mean, I get it. I think it’s safe to say that the real reason for the ban is neither of those things. I’m gonna let it go and move on with my day.)
“Not supporting the rise of Hitler is literally fascism. After Hitler, our turn!”
Support for the SPD waned because they were pushing to the right to court right wing voters. Sort of like how the sitting US president has been on TV using right wing terminology and how the sitting Democratic mayor in NYC brought back stop and frisk.
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It’s all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that’s not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It’s tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - “If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!” But as North Korea shows, there’s not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don’t feel ‘left’ enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don’t want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im “somehwhere” (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as “we” (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we’re putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it’s the other that’s a bad guy.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
Trump respect your right to NOT VOTE against him. 👍
@FenrirIII god doesnt exist. for the love of Humanity, VOTE!
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
Liberals: “We don’t need your votes anyway.” Also “Liberals please vote, don’t protest and don’t criticize Joe Biden or you’re helping Trump”
Who can we vote for that’s not trump or Biden?
Sure I’m going to go to the third party. I recommend you all do the same unless you’re in a swing state. Dr. West and Claudia de La Cruz are actual good candidates.
I don’t understand how you think not stopping a genocide is the same as aiding or committing a genocide.
If you really think those two things are the same dude, you got to look hard in the mirror.
Brav-fucking-O. 100% this. I get comments removed for saying exactly this in other communities, but it’s 100% accurate from what I see.
