My personal favorite for singular gender neutral pronouns are Zi/zir/zirs/zirself or Ze/zer/zers/zerself.
Xe is just trying to be Zi/Ze and it would be confusing for Chinese people. There’s also female connotations with X genome vs Y genome. Which is he Ye is also meh.
I wouldn’t mind Ve, ver, vers, verself either.
Ze sounds more unique and it’s kinda neat how it’s Gen Z helping push it too.
Otherwise just use the pronouns they prefer.
Having to write official documents while having to use they/them is annoying without gender neutral terms coming into it.
English really just needs a better gender neutral singular and plural pronouns. Since they has been used for plural most of my life it feels like better singulars are the way to go, but it doesn’t really matter. Just someone make it official please lol.
I mean, if changing your pronouns is one of the hundred biggest challenges in your life, I am super envious of your life.
FIFY
Why do you think anyone who chooses their pronouns finds it a challenge?
Do you find it challenging to know which gender you are or do you just know?
I find it challenging how many people assume so much shit about me based on how I look, yeah.
I didn’t ask you about what other people assumed about you.
I asked you if you found it challenging to know which gender you are. Is it a challenge or do you just know?
I have to deal with extremely bad gender dysphoria, so yes I would trade my struggles with any transphobe who thinks they have it rough
If you’re not on-board with the LGBTQ movement, are you a transphobe?
Seeing as the movement is equality and not being persecuted, I’m gonna say yes.
If I dont believe a sexual fetish is a gender identity, am I a transphobe?
Because everything you said is wrong and bigoted. So you’re definitely a transphobe, thanks for confirming so we can all block you.
Science seems to prove that gender identity and sex are seperate concepts but is inconclusive about signs of intelligent life in you.
That you asked that question like it makes any sort of sense tells us that you already have some specific aspect of the vast array of topics that could be covered under “the LGBTQ movement” in mind. So why don’t you tell us what exactly rustles your jimmies and then we can help you sort if you are a bigot or not.
If i’m not on-board with the LGBTQ movement, would that make me a bigot?
If you don’t have the courage to answer I think it’s safe to assume you are just a bigot.
But what does that mean
I’m guessing that means ‘trans people are icky and God hates f*s’
If you weren’t such a coward you would cut the bullshit and just say what you mean.
If you’re not “on baord” with the Jewish movement, are you an anti-semite?
not on-board with the LGBTQ movement
What exactly do you need to “be on board” with? Not being a raging douche?
If i were not on board with sexual fetishes being gender identities, for example
Ohhh, you could’ve just said you’re a total moron in your first comment. Or a pretty pathetic troll, either way. Would’ve saved everyone a lot of effort.
That’s the thing. While I don’t use any of the labels myself and I don’t feel personal connection to the movement, it looks to me like there’s the side of 1) reasonable human being and 2) asshole.
according to the assholes, anyone who is a reasonable human being is a bigot and asshole.
Seriously.
Gay agenda : we exist, please acknowledge our rights as people and treat us with basic human respect.
Bigots : Can’t be done.
Ok, we get it. John doesn’t care if she gets addressed with the right pronoun.
I’m getting pretty old.
Transgender stuff is new and confusing to me.
My only experience with it was in a bar I used to frequent in Los Angeles, though I think they were more transvestite than transgender. Pronouns never came up there. We just used names.
It’s easy for me to use any name given when introduced. If you introduce yourself to me with a feminine name when you appear quite male, it’s no skin off my teeth.
Pronouns are more difficult simply because of my embedded native language of English dictating gender. While difficult, it’s no more inconvenient than to slow myself down, think about what I’m saying, and try to use what’s preferred. If I should slip up, then maybe a brief, “oops, sorry about that,” is in order.
The hardest thing for me is if I have known you as one name and now I’ve got to use a new name. This has nothing to do with gender or politics however. It’s just how my brain stores things. My sister uses a different first name in adulthood than when we were kids, and I never have been able to adapt. Since my sister is awesome and understands me, she gives me a pass on this.
Bottom line, the linguistics can be difficult for us oldies, but that doesn’t give us reason to fear, hate, or persecute.
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I’d even go simpler than that. “If calling people by their preferred pronouns is one of the hundred biggest challenges…” Inserting “correct” into the statement just begs to get into an argument with a conservative and feels like you’re trying to force them to accept a different reality than they want to.
IMHO it’s simply a personal preference thing. Let people live how they want to live. You don’t have to convince everyone that Sally is really a woman trapped in the body of a man, you just have to say that it’s her preference you call her as a “she”. People should have the freedom to define themselves. That’s it. End of story.
My conservative neighbor brought up trans stuff thinking he’d use all the conservative media talking points and my answer was simply “it doesn’t really bother me. I’m a live and let live kind of guy. If they want me to use a different pronoun I’ll do my best to switch to that pronoun.” If you spin it as a freedom instead of a reality then it’s easier to accept.
Yeah, let people live. But also, let me live. Let me define myself the way I want. Stop telling me what the fuck to say and do and think and labeling anything that is ‘different’ than your way of thinking ‘bad and wrong’.
Isn’t using \they\ is just better all around because
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Not everyone identifies as binary, so they makes it better for everyone
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Not everyone is willing to come out and reveal their identity, especially at workplace, so why only use correct term with those who reveal themselves. It is not relevant at work, in fact it may lead to biases
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Specific pronouns do increase cognitive overload for everyone. Imagine trying to remember not only names but also pronouns of 100s of colleagues and friends. Linkedin has started adding pronouns? If you forget, someone will get offended.
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Now even conferences are manufacturing pronouns pins. These pins get discarded and this just causes more waste
\They\ is just simpler and better for everyone. I think we can even start to eliminate \he\ and \she\ to make more inclusive society.
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There IS a correct answer, though. If someone says, “My name is John”, you don’t get to tell them, “Well you look like a James to me, so I’m only going to call you James”. That would be incorrect. You don’t get to define other people’s existence like that.
Same thing. ‘John’ isn’t a preferred name. It’s his name. Calling him a different name would be incorrect just like using different pronouns.
We had a temp receptionist called Joyce at my job. She said that at her old job they called her Mama J, and indicated that she would like to be called that here as well. I guess we were all assholes who defined her existence by calling her Joyce.
Nicknames aren’t pronouns, they’re nicknames. If her legal name was Mama J and you didn’t call her that, yeah, that would probably constitute harassment over time and her asking you to call her by her legal name.
What would actually be comparable is if you addressed her with male pronouns. Since the discussion was about pronouns, not nicknames.
but someone’s preferred pronouns are the correct ones to use for them
It’s the right phrase, and if it triggers a conservative to start arguing, so be it
It’s an inherently anti conservative thing, funny enough. At least with how some conservative voters think – Keep government out of it and let people live how they want to. Respect how they want to live, as a good neighbor.
I agree with you that spinning it as freedom is a good way to do it. You could probably put a Christian tilt on it as well.
I agree with most of the sentiment, but we don’t let children go around saying things (especially wrong things) that offend people just because they believe them. Why should we accept when an adult does it?
You are asking us to tolerate the intolerant.
that’s what tolerance is. not tolerating them is being intolerant, and self-defeating ultimately.
sorry, should we go an extirpate the Amish because they don’t accept lgbt+ people in their community? or another community that disagrees with lgbt identities? are we going to bomb the middle east in the name of trans rights? those are utter ridiculous ideas, so is the idea of being ‘stamping out intolerance’. all that tells me is you think others should conform to your beliefs or be removed.
no, we’re not. because that’s insane. we tolerate the intolerate all the time. just like you don’t scream at your annoying co-worker who bores you to tears about sports or wahtever shit they try to chat you up about.
Look up the paradox of tolerance. In order to be tolerant, you must be intolerant of intolerance.
ok. lets just round up all the intolerant people and re-educate them until they are tolerant like we are.
because it’s totally cool fo us tolerant people to be fascists, as long as we are eliminating fascism!
Hey man, I’m just sharing the philosophical concept of what happens when a society is tolerant of everyone.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
No one is suggesting that only fascism can prevent fascism. It’s the ‘right to refuse service’ when people are being an asshole, and you have to exercise that right when people go too far. There have to be some consequences for being intolerant in order to maintain a tolerant society.
No one where? Here?
Where I live in liberal leftie land… people are 100% often totally for facism, as long as it’s targeted at the ‘right’ people. And ironically, also they all bend over backwards to accommodate assholes as long as have a minority identity, because you know, it’s perfectly ok to treat people like shit because you’re categorically oppressed.
And in the few spaces that are generally open to everyone… they get shit on by these same supposed tolerant people, becuse these spaces are not ‘safe’ if the evil bad majority is allowed into them.
It’s pure insanity. Largely fueled by nitwits who have no experience with genuine oppression and tell me I’m an asshole when I tell them my stories of genuine racist and sexism, because it makes them ‘uncomfortable’. lol
I do not dress to suit the amish. And I do not speak to suit these gender-obsessives. Towards that sort of dictation, no, I do not practice tolerance.
But I do tolerate those who think (dress, live etc ) differently from me to peacefully do their thing.
(To clear up your equivocation there.)
This seems sane to me. How about you?
My conservative neighbor brought up trans stuff thinking he’d use all the conservative media talking points and my answer was simply “it doesn’t really bother me. I’m a live and let live kind of guy. If they want me to use a different pronoun I’ll do my best to switch to that pronoun.” If you spin it as a freedom instead of a reality then it’s easier to accept.
That sounds to me like he realized he couldn’t have the argument he wanted to have, not that he accepted anything. Edit - but I generally agree with your overall point.
That’s a fair point. When I said “choose” I meant that they did not necessarily go with what they were assigned at birth. So it was “choose” in the sense of choose to be honest about who you are. I guess saying coming out of the closet would be more accurate. Sorry for the confusion.
It’s important to understand that Hank is specific to say “correct prounons” and not “preferred prounons”. We as creature of civilization have to right to control our place in that creation, so when someone misgenders, it’s not that they are nessecarily showing disrespect, but being factually wrong. It’s okay to state the wrong thing if you don’t know, but if you insist that only YOUR interpretation of another person is correct, even more so than how THEY THEMSELVES interpret themselves, then you have crossed the rubicon in to bigotry.
To see another person on the street and think you have a better view of them than they do in a mirror is just wild levels of arrogance. They know themslevss far more than you ever will.
That’s John Green, but they’re the same person, according to the internet.
Try some proofreading your own comments. Dimwit.
Hey, just FYI the period before “dimwit” should be a comma. If you’re going to hold other people to a standard, at least hold yourself to the same one, asshole.
No. They are separate sentences.
“Dimwit” is not a sentence.
It is.
🤣 😂
Sorry if the quick comment I left on my phone while on the toilet wasn’t up to your standards, but since you aren’t actually contributing anything of substance I don’t see a reason to care what you think.
Edit: Jesus your comment history is sad. Seems like you never can think of anything worthwhile to say. Stay mad I guess?
It’s also proofreading
This is exactly the comment I was gonna leave, I strongly dislike the phrase “preferred pronouns,” because that implies that it’s a preference. Big props to John for making the distinction
The problem with “correct” pronouns is that what’s considered correct will differ depending on who’s saying it. There’s no confusion with “preferred” pronouns. Also, it is a preference, because some people use pronouns that are not the standard he/she/they ones. It’s not their gender that they chose, it’s (potentially) what pronouns they want to use to refer to said gender.
What’s with the comments in this post?
I feel like it was written by people where English is their
thirdfifth language.Not knocking it. But even AI sounds more natural.
the bots and trolls are here now.
I believe they prefer pronouns of it/apache helicopter.
Using pronouns isn’t a “problem” though, it’s that people genuinely don’t care.
I don’t care very much if I’m honest. I’ve never interacted with someone who informed me that their pronouns were not the usual ones.
Gender-concerned people telling me how to speak is like fundamentalists telling me to wear a dress. I tell them both to piss up a rope.
People genuinely do care considering Jordan Peterson’s entire career is based on the whole “you can’t force me to use your pronouns” bullshit that no one was trying to force him to do in the first place.
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So you’re saying that the loonys care.
Loony for. Loony against. Twins, basically.
No, I’m saying bigots and assholes care. You can be sane and be a bigot and/or an asshole. And there a huge number of such people.
And if you mean that people who know what their gender is are loony and would prefer it if people didn’t get it wrong, you are probably loony yourself.
They’re both loony.
You’re loony yourself if you think someone consistently calling you by the wrong gender every time they talk to or about you wouldn’t be very rude.
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Since that is totally irrelevant to what we are talking about, no I don’t.
I will start by saying I am very open minded and really don’t agree with a lot of what Peterson says. I’m also pro LGBT and leaving people be who they are and love the life that makes them happy… But he’s right that we shouldn’t be forced to use someone’s pronouns. At the time there was discussion about making this a law. If someone wants to be a prick let them. Better to know who they are.
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It was made a law, it’s also a law in many parts of the US. It’s not about preventing random people from being pricks, it’s about discouraging harassment from employers, school administrations, and government officials. They’re prohibited from persistently misgendering you in the same way they’re prohibited from calling you slurs. I struggle to imagine a scenario where life would be improved by removing those sensible guard rails on civil society.
Nobody is “forced to use pronouns” at present but this stance misses the point. It looks at the harms of misgendering as a situation that doesn’t cause other inequities and harms.
For the average social interaction where you are on equal terms but can walk away being misgendered is something a lot of us hate but live with like any small annoyance. It is like stubbing your toe. Not fun but whatever it’s fine that’s just “someone being a prick”. But if deliberate misgendering is allowed to happen over a long period in a workplace setting it is not something we get to walk away from. If we have to regularly interact with that person or lose our ability to feed and house ourselves then we are forced to have mental health problems because someone essentially doesn’t like being told what to do. Having to deal with panic attacks at work because you had to be locked in a room with someone hitting every trauma trigger you have exposed to the world or else you have to find a new and maybe worse job is a barrier to participation in society.
If it’s in a medical setting where we have to balance our health outcomes knowing that if we don’t comply with the misgendering our care is impacted because a doctor holds our lives or the relief from pain in their hands. A lot of trans people become shy and don’t seek help early and often because they equate doctors visits with a sense of powerlessness and shame knowing that they can’t stand up for themselves. In that instance it’s not just “someone being a dick” you are placing someone’s complete physical wellbeing before someone’s egotistical need to be “right” about you.
If a trans person in a social club and misgendering isn’t checked by a majority it can mean that they might not have a choice on whether or not to go. The world becomes a smaller place when you have gender related trauma.
Deliberate misgendering in a professional setting isn’t just “someone showing you they are a prick” the burden always falls upon trans people disproportionately because our participation in society often forces us to compromise directly on our health and there are real traumas and weaknesses that underlie our transness. If someone was openly making rape jokes around someone you knew had sexual assault trauma you’d step in right? Why not the same for someone with gender related traumas?
What Peterson is railing against is protections for participation in regular society through professional setting misgendering cases.
No one is being forced.
For fuck’s sake.
Peterson just lied about the bill.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech
No one is stopping him or anyone else from being a bigoted asshole. Asking people to stop doing it and telling them why is not forcing them.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification.
lots of people are being harassed and intimidated into it though. lots of people take an absolutist stance on pronouns, and if you misgender someone or don’t ask them what their pronoun is, you are considered a ‘bad person’.
labeling and harassing people into social conformity is being forced to do something.
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It also never happened to me but I imagine the conversation would be something like:
Hello X
Please don’t call me X I don’t like it, call me Y instead
Ok
~ ~The end~ ~
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Wtf is going on here? I was expecting a jabberwocky to make its appearance.
Who that?
Sorry, why is it such a hardship for you if someone says “don’t call me he, please, call me grit?” What does it matter if it sounds funny or weird? Lots of things in English sound funny or weird. We drive on a parkway and park on a driveway.
You’re right, but you can never be left…darn that’s even wrong but not even right. You could say we’re uneven right 👍. Like the word fuck. I can fuck up but haven’t ever fucked down! But there are many ways to fuck up and non of those ways is doggy style. You can fuck someone up, but you can’t fuck them up doggy style. You can only fuck them doggy style. The only way to fuck is up, but there are a huge number of ways to fuck. Like you can’t fuck forward, but you can fuck missionary. But although you can run forward towards a goal, you can never run missionary towards a goal. Two guys can’t fuck scissor style, they can get into that position but it would be painful. Now you can back up and back down, but you can’t back left or right. You can back up a little to the left but your can’t fuck up a little to the left. English is so dumb!
It’s clear that you’re not trying to make a point here.
You didn’t comment here to discuss but just to throw your hate for pronouns onto other people
Ask yourself if you actually want to create positive change. You clearly have an opinion on the matter. Regardless of your opinion being reasonable or not, you already ruined your chance to get your point across by being a total ass
You will never convince anyone by being an asshole. So don’t be one.
And if you just want to express your frustrations then go to your therapist.
I don’t know why I’m bothering typing this, but…
You do realize that language evolves and changes, what sounds odd to us may not in 20 years and what sounds normal now may have sounded odd 20 years ago.
Yes there are some rules, but also those rules are subject to change too.
Saying stuff like this 40 years ago would sound absurd: Google it, search it up, tweet it, download it, upload it, post it.
Language changes, thou cannest changeth with it or thee will eventually and indubitably sound like a right silly nincompoop, knave!
I think my point here is that I certainly didn’t get to live in a trans open world. The only openly gay people in my class in jr high and highschool were shun to a corner. They were outcasts. Imagine learning their pronouns… There was no such thing back in the 90’s.
Now you can’t expect people of my age to not find the language strange at all. But my point should be pretty clear, the way to start is through youth. They and not us are the ones that change language. Once they reach their 40’s and 50’s there will be a new wave that will bring more changes with them. So if you don’t catch the waves such as the COVID baby boom, you miss a generation. School is where new language trends will be set.
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What makes you think people care when they are accidentally misgendered? It’s not the accidental misgendering that is the problem.
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Wow. You really don’t understand what he’s saying.
Also, why on Earth would he be talking about non-native English speakers if he’s an American writer who writes novels in English for English-speakers? Does he really need to add “except for all of you who don’t speak English” or does everyone (except you apparently) realize that without him having to add that bit of unnecessary clarification?
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Again, it’s very apparent that everyone else here, including non-native English speakers, understood what he was talking about but you.
John Green is not under an obligation to tailor his statements to you personally.
Bruh… Just use they and them. If people get pissy about it just tell them you struggle really hard with memory and this is your way of making sure you treat everyone with kindness.
…this really isn’t that hard
Nice reply. I had to remove my comment because it seemed offensive. It was just poking fun at English as a whole. But whatever. Thanks for the suggestion though.
God I really can’t imagine just how sad your life must be that you would actually go out of your way to write this comment.
Fine pine. We can’t poke fun on ourselves.
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My question comes from a grammar /German background: We have four cases. They have different pronouns. Which ones should I list?
From what I recall from briefly studying German, there’s still a masculine/feminine/neuter pronoun in all 4 cases. Couldn’t you just use the appropriate one in each case?
whichever one you feel is the most correct any any one time
English also has cases, we just don’t think of them much. It’s why pronouns are typically given as nominative/objective pairs: she/her, they/them, etc. So, similarly in German you’d probably only need to give one or two examples to make it clear which set to use. Or give all four.
Most commonly used English pronouns are typically listed as “he/him”, “she/her”. Sometimes people add possessive forms as well ("ie “she/her/hers”. “They/them”, “she/they”, “he/they”, “they/he”, “they/she”, “he/she”, “any” are other common options. There’s not hard rules though.
Whichever ones you want English speakers to use when referring to you.
Simple, isn’t it?
Everything is simple when you know the solution.
I was not really expecting English speakers to use my German pronouns, they are for German speaking people.
Would that be the Dativ or Akkusativ form? They are both quite common and important
Es geht nur um das Geschlecht, also er/sie/es. Mann kann das gleiche auf deutsch machen, die Fälle haben eigentlich nichts damit zu tun.
Es geht nur darum, wie sich der Person fühlt. Leute mit eine biologische “Zwischen-Zustand” sind ein gutes Beispiel für uns “0815” leute. Sollte ich sie oder er sagen zur eine Person mit weiblichen Büßen und einen Penis? Die leute (und auch andere die sich als nicht Standard fühlen) wollen einfach selber einschneiden wie man sie adressiert.
(Entschuldigung wegen meinen Grammatik-Fehlern, mein Deutsch wird ständig schlimmer)
Yep, pretty much what UNY0N said. It is about the gender, not the pronouns per se. It is an English thing that they have gendered pronouns when mostly all other stuff in the language is (assumed not) gendered. Such meticulus discussion of pronouns detached from gender makes me wonder what your reaction would be if someone held a door open for you and then called you Fraulein. Would you feel misgendered then?
Lol, that happened already.
Okay, then you use whichever English pronoun you wish to use. Again, pretty simple. I really don’t think this is something you couldn’t have figured out for yourself just by spending time around English speakers or even just watching English-language media or listening to English-language music.
