but did hamas ever condemn the russian invasion of ukraine? what was the motto on the last CSD in gaza?
I wonder how it would read if they quoted the Russian military in the headline on the right.
The Russian story was “defective Ukrainian air defense missle hit hospital”. But since that has now been debunked because of evidence of the missile being Russian. they’ll also just say something about a terrorist base.
Or actually, they will just still say it was a defective air defense missile. Looking at the amount of people here still repeating the lie about the military base it appears not to matter that it gets fully debunked. The drones will repeat anything they are told.
It’s extremely frustrating to hold the apparently controversial opinion that killing civilians is, consistently, a bad thing.
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Operation Al-Aqsa Flood came after fifteen years of Gaza being besieged by the IDF. Yes civilians died in it and that’s tragic, but Hamas did not create the conditions under which the operation occurred, Israel did. Hamas does not have the power and the international backing to end this conflict, Israel does. Hamas has not spent seven and a half decades ethnically cleansing Israelis - Israel has spent that time ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Anything short of support for Hamas is support for genocide.
So Hamas killing civilians is a bad thing too?
Yes, obviously. Why do you ask? Since you asked, I may as well ask, is Israel killing civilians a bad thing?
Gonna start calling out people showing support for Hamas at protests?
Sure, if you see them, kick them to the curb. Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?
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Alright.
Firstly, I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate. That’s not to say that you are being unfair or inaccurate, but the sources where you get your information might be. (I will agree that antisemitism is on the rise, and demands a response. I just see more of it from the right, even from Zionists who either want to remove diasporic Jews or support a model of an ethnostate). So, if you don’t draw a distinction between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas, there’s no conversation to be had, because we’re not really dealing with what protestors do, say, or believe. While you compared this to MAGA, it’s the exact same rhetoric used by MAGA to attack BLM, which itself mirrored the rhetoric used against the Civil Rights Movement.
But it’s also not worth getting into the weeds unless we can find some common ground, so I’d like to ask you the same question again: Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
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I am perfectly happy with how I presented myself, actually. And I think you also revealed a lot about yourself, too. If you’re happy with what that is, then that’s all there is to it.
I do think it’s worth pointing out that the thing that really seemed to set you off was asking you the same question you asked me. I answered it easily, and you took great offense while hurling insults and misrepresenting positions I’ve already put down in words. Why should I get into the facts when you don’t really care about the facts, or what I have to say?
If the question of whether Israel killing civilians is bad (not even unjustified, not even criminal, just bad) bothers you… maybe that’s a good thing. I certainly have no problem supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas, or supporting Jews while condemning Israel. It’s possible you just didn’t want to voice an unpopular position, but maybe it bothers you that you can’t say “yes, it’s bad.” If that’s the case, keep pulling on that thread. I think you could use some self-reflection, especially given this last post. I’m sorry, but this was a lot of the pot calling the kettle black.
I sincerely hope you have a better tomorrow. I know you’re angry and frustrated, but I hope you can find peace and understanding.
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Let’s not forget that trump supported the move of Israel’s capital to goddamn Jerusalem
You’re only worth moral consideration if those in power want you to be.
Wars, racism, homophobia, etc. These are just the results of those who have the power to ignore those they deem not worthy, doing whatever they want.
It ranges from current wars, to past wars, to the Holocaust, to 9/11, to eating animals, to Epstein, etc.
Maybe one day we will realize that someones worth should not be assigned by others.
We are all equal or we are all dead.
Laughable
Yup,. the hypocrisy is so thick you can taste it, and it’s bitter with a strong hint of propaganda. the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.
the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.
This is an objectively true statement. Of course the world is lead by assholes.
We all know that power corrupts. Neuroscience has shown that getting power damages the brain’s capacity for empathy.
You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.
You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.
There isn’t a single US president in living memory without a litany of war crimes on their head, and probably going back further but I don’t particularly feel like going back to pre-WWII history because just why bother at this point?
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/11/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy-2/
Jimmy Carter was good at lip-service, not in reality. And honestly, I don’t even think it’s because he was a particularly nasty person - although I wouldn’t be surprised, he was a politician - it’s just the job forces you to become a war criminal. That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.
EDIT: Actually, if you want to go back further, read one of the US military’s most decorated generals on what the military’s true purpose is, written in the interwar period: https://archive.org/details/WarIsARacket
Edit 2: before anyone else wants to pile on this and call it all bullshit because they read one item and it wasn’t genocidal enough for them, at least read as far as East Timor, 1977. The list is chronological, if you get bored after the first item I’m sorry, but I’m not spoon-feeding you the whole article.
So he has blood on his hands for not getting involved and for getting involved when both sides are likely to commit atrocities.
What a ridiculous bar to set.
What are you talking about? Please be specific. All I’m getting are vague “nuh-uh” answers. If you want to actually convince anyone that you have a point, you need to make it.
The
first charge(edit: it was the third charge, I do apologise for expecting anyone to read more than a few paragraphs), was his support for Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor. That’s not a “both sides” kind of issue. It’s an invasion and ensuing genocide. It’s not hard to judge what the right thing to do is there, but the US chose their global strategic goals over not genocide.So like… what are you talking about? Please be specific.
The first example was Zaire, so if you don’t even know what you are linking I’m not going to go through it line by line.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
William Blum writes in Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II that Carter, who had been in office for only two months, was reluctant to involve his administration in a far-reaching intervention whose scope and length could not be easily anticipated.
However, Carter did provide “non-lethal” aid, while he did not protest as European countries offered military aid, and Morocco sent several thousand of its US-trained military forces to aid Mobutu.
“President Carter asserted on more than one occasion that the Zaire crisis was an African problem, best solved by Africans, yet he apparently saw no contradiction to this thesis in his own policy, nor did he offer any criticism of France or Belgium, or of China, which sent Mobutu a substantial amount of military equipment,” writes Blum. [1]
He didn’t criticize, what an absolute bloodthirsty monster!
I apologise for getting a minor detail wrong about the order of items in the list, I underestimated how critically important the order of items in that list was to you.
For instance it seems like you saw a chronological list and when the very first item - which is actually quite damning and from which you omitted the inciting incident of a CIA-backed assassination - wasn’t a full-on war crime, you decided it was all frivolous. I can see why it’s so easy to get someone like you to ignore war crimes when you’re that unwilling to even read about them. I called out East Timor by name and you still ignored it. I can’t hold your hand through the entire article. History is for people who are willing to do some reading.
Anyway, if you go just a few items down the list, you read this:
The genocidal slaughter reached its peak in 1977, On March 1, 95 members of the Australian Parliament sent a letter to Carter claiming the Indonesian troops were carrying out “atrocities” and asking the American President “to comment publicly on the situation in East Timor.” [3]
The response was crickets. Carter ramped up aid with funding and weapons to the murderous Indonesian regime, brazenly flaunting the human rights requirements imposed on American aid.
So that’s a war crime, even by the extremely lax rules imposed by the US on themselves and to which they will never hold themselves accountable.
If those are the worst examples you can come up with the man was basically a saint. What a bullshit hit piece. I am now dumber for having read it.
“Basically a saint” because he only sent aid to juntas and brutal genocidal regimes as opposed to what, exactly? Ordering the bombs dropped himself? I notice you didn’t even answer a single charge, just called it all bullshit. Why? I guess we should all just trust your judgement on the matter and call it closed?
Also, if you think he was “basically a saint” even though his administration still backed genocide, then I think you’re kind of accepting my premise that “That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.”
Yup. One of the very few who had the capability and likely didn’t use it.
Which of course led to him being single term because he wasn’t ruthless enough for a voting public that would rather have a former actor run the country into the ground while paying loveable grandpa to hide the evil.
But that wasn’t because he couldn’t lead the country, just that the public loves to fall for confident blowhards that tell them what they want to hear.
Hell, a while ago France24 wasn’t even using the terms “Israel” or “IDF” in any of it’s reporting on the sacking of Gaza - they were literally pretending the bullets, bombs and missiles was being fired and dropped by some unknown party.
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So this piece doesn’t source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn’t find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.
But yeah let’s justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.
This is highly contested and no credible evidence has been produced for these claims. Israeli propagandists have been hard at work conjuring up lies wholesale and it’s shameful to repeat them without verification.
Al Shifa was home to Hamas torture chambers for a decade at least.
Your link gave one example a decade ago.
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You linked something from a decade ago of something being claimed once, and claimed the link showed it’s been happening for a decade continuously.
I thought you were just confused so I didn’t ban you
If you knew what you were doing, then that was my mistake.
What makes you think they’re still doing it? IDF/Netanyahu saying it without any credible evidence?
Also, what kind of logic justifies attacking a hospital which definitely has victims of Israel’s own relentless attack, on the off chance that the hospital might have terrorists?
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Source: trust the IDF bro
Israel has killed far more health workers and razed far more hospitals/medical facilities than Russia has
Yes, I was there too. I am hamas actually
Got any evidence cowboy?
We’re all in the Zone Of Interest now.
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Sure are
Yeah they’re different. Israel killed many times more civilians in a fraction of the time.
The numbers are iffy, but yes, it’s about 4x as many civilians killed in Gaza as Ukraine:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties
The difference being the IDF lying about why they destroyed a hospital and Russia lying about whether they were the ones who destroyed a hospital?
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First, that article is paywalled and the subheading just says that US intelligence confirms a suspicion. US intelligence also said Iraq had WMDs so they aren’t that reliable.
The IDF entering the hospital is a different thing from the complete distruction of the hospital and all of the other hospitals they have destroyed in Gaza. Or all of the other infrastructure they have destroyed, always claiming it was used by Hamas.
The IDF has also lied multiple times about not killing the journalists they have killed. Or the aid convoys they attacked directly despite the IDF knowing they would be trainsporting aid.
They are lying liars and claiming anything is ‘used by Hamas’ should be immediately suspect.
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The article is from January and is speculation. I can’t find an article that says they did find a command bunker and network of tunnels, just a couple about finding a few weapons and communication items plus one unexplored tunnel.
Do you know of a more recent article that confirms there was a command bunker and network of tunnels? It has been 7 months and they spent the time destroying the rest of the hospital so surely there is something confirming that it was a Hamas command bunker and not just stuff left by soldiers who went to a hospital for medical care.
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First, connecting a tunnel to a building doesn’t make the building itself the same thing as whatever the tunnel connects to. By that logic, having a road to a hospital from a military baes makes the hospitsl a valid target.
I didn’t watch the full video, but it sure looked like a long service tunnel, which tons of buildings have. Nothing that justifying destroying an entire hospital complex after they cleared it. Is the IDF unable to close a single tunnel going into a hospital?
Not to mention the part in bold from the article (found out I can get to the text at least through reader mode).
The Israeli military, however, has struggled to prove that Hamas maintained a command-and-control center under the facility. Critics of the Israeli military say the evidence does not support its early claims, noting that it had distributed material before the raid showing five underground complexes and also had said the tunnel network could be reached from wards inside a hospital building. Israel has publicly revealed the existence of only one tunnel entrance on the grounds of the hospital, at the shack outside its main buildings.
Yup, justifying destroying the entire hospital complex because one tunnel connects to a shack outside the main buildings. Really proving your point there!
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Last I heard, Ukrainians weren’t holding up in those hospitals and using them as launch sites for their bombs…
Once you turn a hospital into a launch site, it’s no longer afforded the same protection. Might be wise to avoid doing that in the grand scheme of things.
Last I heard, Ukrainians weren’t holding up in those hospitals and using them as launch sites for their bombs…
RT says they were and the only people who might dispute it are terrorists (also according to Russia).
Besides, who am I supposed to believe? An IDF endorsed stenographer or my Hamas-affiliated eyes?
When you’re unwilling to believe your own eyes with the videos and pictures that have been shared that are clearly GPS and time stamped showing what was found and where then there’s nothing that’s going to convince you of reality over your embedded ignorance.
A lot of this boils down to who you trust for your news. Very easy to get a wide spectrum of videos as “proof” of an equivalent spectrum of beliefs and views.
Very easy to find war crimes in the middle of a war, and a little selective editing can go a long way towards defining “good guys” versus “bad guys”.
Yeah that’s fair. I try to make a point to get my news from both sides of the story I subscribed to Al Jazeera knowing they’re a clear propaganda machine. Regardless of where I’m getting the information from, I’m performing my own contextual analysis based on what I’m reading and seeing, and it’s really hard to deny the photographic and video evidence that’s published and widely available on this topic.
Last I heard
Yeah you’re gonna need to back that claim up. Russian propaganda doesn’t count.
It’s wild that some people refuse to believe the pictures and videos of their own eyes. It’s undeniable but it weapons caches have been found in various hospitals including al-shifa. It’s undeniable that power feeding the underground tunnels was coming from a un facility.
You can deny reality all you want, but that doesn’t negate the facts.
The weapons found at al-shifa were small arms permissible under the Geneva convention, as often they are difficult to dispose of them at a moment’s notice when treating people who were injured while carrying a firearm. There were not extensive weapons caches at the hospital, nor is there any evidence that the arms that were there were being used for any Hamas operations.
An overwhelming majority of news outlets, as well as humanitarian orgs like Amnesty International, and even the WHO, have come out and said they have seen no evidence that al-Shifa hospital was used for any military operations by Hamas. Even the IDF itself has barely tried to justify it. Israel bombed this hospital, killed civilians including newborns children, and so far have provided no reason to believe that it was even strategically beneficial for anything other than the continued mass deaths of innocent Palestinians.
That red heifer ain’t gonna sacrifice itself.
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I don’t think Ukraine is known for hiding military assets in things like hospitals.
You can keep trying to make them the same but they aren’t.
Neither is Hamas, nobody believes you anymore.
israel, on the other hand, did plant rifles behind MRI machines, and laptops with plugs that aren’t even used in Gaza.
You may be correct, but the loss of civilian life in Gaza is truly horrific.
they’re not correct; amnesty proved that nothing was hidden in that hospital and that both americans and isrealis were lying about it to their respective populaces.
reminds me of weapons on mass destruction in iraq; they use congress, tv, radio, etc. to spread the lies and then nothing happens when it’s proven that they were lying to us.
Just off reading headlines…is “entering” and “bombing” the same thing now?
Off headlines not.
Off reality Al Shifa is far more destroyed than the Ukrainian hospital.
Non-combatant body counts?
Far far higher as well. Including israel mass executing women and children.
What Israel did was far worse. They bombed the hospitals, laid siege, raided the hospitals, killed doctors, abducted doctors, tortured patients and staff, and dug mass graves.
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In justifying its first raid, Israel said that underneath the hospital lay a complex network of tunnels, a central command center for Hamas. Evidence produced from that raid— caches of weapons, a tunnel leading to small, rusty quarters that appeared out of use, and no scores of militants found — fell far short of the claim . Hagari said Monday that the intelligence had been wrong and that Israel had tipped off Hamas militants at Shifa by announcing its attack plans.
“They left there because they knew we were coming,” he said. “And this time, we did something else.”
By doubling back to Shifa in mid-March, he said, forces surprised militants who had regrouped inside.
He said the military now believes militants operated mainly from the hospital wards themselves, not tunnels underneath.
Apparently they weren’t using those tunnels now.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-prison-doctor-accuse-torture-israel-hamas-war-rcna159710
Also, the hospital chief has some things to say as well.
Soook, not in tunnels but in hallways and offices in the hospital. Not much practical difference except not as well hidden as Israel believed.
…Hamas was conducting raids from the hallways and offices of an active hospital in a war zone?
The point I was making is that the Israeli official position changed. They said they needed to attack because of an active base in the tunnels. There is no evidence of a base in the tunnels. They found a small weapons cache! Yes, that makes sense, they were treating wounded people in a war one, some of them would would have weapons, which would need to go somewhere.
When Israeli forces took the hospital, there was scant evidence of their position. If there was good evidence, we would have definitely heard about it. I can only conclude that Israeli intelligence was either wrong or lying, barring good evidence to the contrary.
Which one can you provide any evidence? Or are you talking about israel claiming a water well was a tunnel network which has been proven to be a blatant lie?
