I like how ambiguously
This place
can either mean “4chan” or “outside.”
I don’t know half the terms used and I’m pretty sure I never want to.
Terms like “outside”, “people”, “dating”, “pleasent conversations” and “touch with reality”?
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This is why people like this are told to go outside or touch grass.
Frankly all of 4chan should.
But then our supply chain of clinically insane greentexts would fail.
Yeah, we’re way better over here on lemmy. (The lack of racism really does make us better tho)
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I heard a story about a whole world that was perfect because they locked a kid up in a room and threw all the bad stuff in there with the kid. The poor kid suffered all of the world’s miseries so that others could enjoy life. That kid’s name? 4chan.
4chan is 99% deplorable garbage. I won’t even go into /b/. Helllll no. But oddly enough, some of the internet’s best memes come out of there.
Assuming only a place of pure misery could produce those memes
4chan is what the internet would look like if everything had the bare minimum of moderation. Actually a very interesting case study about the human psyche, and I’ve had many a interesting conversation on there, especially early internet days.
Is it a shithole? Overall, yes. But the right board at the right time is truly early internet ethos.
If the entire internet was as unmoderated as 4chan, it would be a lot less extreme than 4chan is.
But since there are only very few places like that, all the weirdos and nazis congregate there, cause that’s where they don’t get banned for using the n-word.
it would be a lot less extreme than 4chan is
I don’t really think so, every online fora I’ve been a part of starts unmoderated, and it works, for years sometimes. But every single time without fail when a platform reaches a critical mass, moderation becomes necessary.
I think putting a digital mask on shows the true nature of people, and moderation is the only way of keeping conversation* civil on the internet.
moderation becomes necessary
Maybe, if you’re determined to preserve a certain culture on a specific site. But as long as movement between sites is pretty easy (was quite common in the days of forums), then the community could self-regulate reasonably well. Either the weirdos would leave, or the constructive members of the community would leave and the site would get shut down. Either way, the problem solves itself without moderation becoming necessary.
IMO, the only reason we “need” moderation is because we’ve decided that the site itself needs to be preserved. That’s the mindset that needs to change. Sites should come and go and take the trash out with it.
Moderation isn’t necessary if you’re willing to just throw the whole site away when it turns to shit.
Well, yeah. Storing your potatoes in the dark is also not “necessary” if you’re willing to just throw them away when they sprout. But wanting to preserve things we like is a given to most people.
I’m often hearing that 4chan is “unmoderated” or has “the bare minimum of moderation”, which just doesn’t line up with reality. Many boards have strict and specific rules about what content is allowed, what is banned, and how said content should be presented. Just listing some rules off the top of my head: you must have a minimum number of pictures to start a thread of /s/. Normal hentai porn goes into /h/, weird fetish stuff goes into /d/. No western art allowed on either. Content that breaks the rules gets removed within hours, sometimes minutes.
If you see something that you find disagreeable on a 4chan board, it’s likely there because it’s allowed to be there. They aren’t struggling with moderation. The fact that it’s still online in the clearnet after so much media attention proves that they have enough jannies to take care of the illegal stuff at least.
Content and formatting rules are just to keep things on topic. When people mention the bare minimum of moderation, that is literally the bare minimum, and I never said they are struggling with it. They just choose to not remove any inflammatory or borderline content because they want to be that place.
Okay, then that means I misunderstood your comment. Seems like we’re on the same page.
It’s the primordial soup of internet content.
The Mysterious Hacker 4chan
Isn’t the concept of a meme itself a leak from 4chan?
The original idea of a meme came from Dawkins in the 70’s, and “Internet Meme” from Godwin in the early 90’s, talking about message boards, usenet, listservs, etc.
4chan did not start the concept, no. Lolcats came from 4chan, iirc. But internet memes predate the existence of 4chan.
Well the word “meme” comes from Dawkins, but his usage was not to label the idea we talk about when we talk about memes.
I know for a fact where I’m from memes were something you’d only ever see on 4chan and people on Facebook and any other “normal” social media (or people) had no idea of what the fuck even was a meme.
I rememeber because I was like “this people are degenerates but it’s fascinating the whole layers upon layers of insane meaning that they managed to cram into single pictures, I wonder if people outside this bubble would ever understand those”.
And to be fair memes nowdays are rarely as “obscure” as those old ones.
No, it was Godwin for internet memes.
If you mean image macros, sure. That’s a subset of what a meme is.
Many forget that a meme is simply a concept or idea that grabs hold within a human community and is propagated and promulgated. Patriarchy is a meme. Capitalism is a meme. Doing ‘bunny ears’ behind someone’s head in a photo is a meme (h/t Parker and Stone). Doing cave paintings of animals is a meme. Fashion of an era is a meme. Our entire social structure runs on memes.
You think you’re funny but you’re just cringe
Ive got some news for you…
Through this sieve would come the ascended madmen. Those who escaped the cave and rejected the reality without, retreating to their chamber of hate and stagnation. The truly unhinged. No more naive, parroted bastardizations of the Socratic method. Only irreparables.
This select choir of lunatics voluntarily ablating their sanity will be decadence enough, I think
most of them were social outcasts long before 4chan. That’s actually how they got there in the first place.
Everyone will be having pleasant conversations outside, but these guys won’t.
As if anon would call those conversations normal or pleasant.
Fake, we occasionally mention OnlyFans even when outside
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Wut
Basically a better version of the post since I was writing that in the morning while I was half asleep
My classmates are full on degenerates and call the milk that’s in the refill machine in our school’s cafeteria “boy milk”
Yes I know it’s awful, I don’t know if i got down voted because they do that or because half asleep me couldn’t write a legible post
It was a tad confusing and seemed like you were part of it. Thanks for clarifying, they suck
What, no mention of phrenology? I’ve lost touch with 4chan, too much grass touching for me.
Idk being more social after covid has made me more conservative. A lot of behavior that I assumed was exclusively online turned out to be surprisingly common in real life.
A lot of the sexism parts in particular were jarring. A significant minority of grown ass women basically used #metoo as leverage to behave in a sexist and immature manner. There’s also a culture where other women are extremely reluctant to call out that behavior, or else they might be accused of “internalizing their sexism” and not sufficiently supporting women. I dismissed the postings about that as incel-bait during the pandemic, but it turns out it’s extremely common.
What behaviors do you mean and how does that correlate to being conservative?
So the behaviors are the same kind of things that you’ve seen forever among people who can get away with it. Immaturity, bigotry, cruelty, etc. However I myself am a liberal, and live in a liberal area of the country. A lot of people use liberal rhetoric to behave in an objectively toxic way, often by coding criticism of their actions as conservative or the toxic actions themselves as liberal.
I mentioned sexism from women, so I’ll focus on that:
- As I mentioned earlier, a lot of “ethically non monogamous” relationships that are basically a woman gaslighting their partner into letting them cheat on them. This is often talked about as a sort of a sexual identity, with the implication that hating on this is the same as hating on a gay relationship or a woman who chooses to be single.
- As I mentioned earlier, women are highly encouraged to support other women regardless of circumstances. A failure to do so is implied to be sexist.
- In general there is this default assumption that a man is nefarious, usually with some reference to true crime or “the implication”. This assumption is not only a massively sexist generalization, but is never logical. If a man is tall and built he gets the benefit of the doubt, despite being objectively more of a threat than a short chubby guy. The first thing I do when I meet a woman I don’t know in a social setting is to somehow work in that I have a girlfriend in a way that feels organic, and a good amount of times I can see their body language shift. This is despite the fact that my SO is often not with me, and that there are a million different true crime stories involving a heterosexual couple both being evil. All of this is justified with progressive #metoo rhetoric
- There are a lot of single women I know that are very much architects of their own misery. They have super shallow dating standards, unrealistic expectations, and this mentality that if a man is attractive enough red flags are just misunderstanding. When things inevitably go wrong they make sweeping statements about men. Despite this being more or less nonsense, it’s considered sexist to call them out.
- There are multi hundred member Facebook groups of women in every city that gossip about the men they date. This is obviously toxic, but the organizers frame it as a #metoo thing so it’s widely considered acceptable.
- Basically everything I mentioned would be considered absolutely unacceptable if genders were reversed, but if you bring this up then you’ll get a pseudo academic lecture about historical oppression and the patriarchy that basically boils down to “it’s different when I do it”.
- This isn’t a big deal at all, but it’s sort of ridiculous that most women I meet both consider themselves feminist but will get peeved if men don’t pay for the date.
Of course, sexism is just one example. I use it because I find this stuff is the most egregious. I also have a lot of frustration about other things, most notably shitty people making a huge deal about how much they love drag queens in what I view as an effort to obfuscate from how shitty and judgmental they are.
My response to all of this has been to become more conservative. Note the delta. I’m not conservative. However I am also in no way shape or form a progressive anymore. I don’t think liberals have nearly the moral superiority they think they do when it comes to how you treat people on a day to day basis. I support queer identities, but have become more conservative in my idea of monogamy and commitment. I even briefly considered staying home this election when it looked like the main line of attack democrats were gonna do was just to call republicans weirdos over and over again until November, because I’m personally just done associating myself with middle school mean girl politics.
Gonna be honest with you, these all mostly sounds like toxic masculinity, which isn’t really dealt with well by conservatives, mostly because they don’t like critical thinking and all that.
a lot of “ethically non monogamous” relationships that are basically a woman gaslighting their partner into letting them cheat on them
Um, I actually think it’s the opposite? It’s not cheating if all partners consent. If you don’t want to date someone who is ENM, then… don’t? Most ENM people don’t want to date monogamous people! That’s why you tell everyone before you do it (that’s the ethical part.)
women are highly encouraged to support other women regardless of circumstances. A failure to do so is implied to be sexist.
I don’t see the problem here? Is it bad to support women, or is it that they somehow support bad women? Do men not do similar?
In general there is this default assumption that a man is nefarious, usually with some reference to true crime or “the implication”.
This has some truth to it, and while I understand that this is, indeed, a sexist take, it’s one that is perpetuated by a patriarchal culture. Men have unreasonable standards thrust upon them the same way women do, but the standards are not necessarily equal in how they affect us, even on an individial level. Men are indeed seen as more violent as a whole, just as women are seen as sex objects as a whole, and working to change those societal pressures to conform to them is the point of pointing to “toxic masculinity.” There are good aspects to masculinity to admire, that we can try to positively adopt those, the same way that women try to adopt positive aspects of feminimity!
I actually see this the worst among conservative men and women. Conservative men and women tell you to “man up”, that “men don’t cry”, that you need to “take it with your own hands”, the idea of “alpha and beta males”. Very aggressive, and that’s a toxic mindset. The hard part about those cultural aspects is that they DO affect us all! Part of feminism is undersranding these biases within yourself and actively working to change them.
The first thing I do when I meet a woman I don’t know in a social setting is to somehow work in that I have a girlfriend in a way that feels organic, and a good amount of times I can see their body language shift
This actually goes both ways, too. Women very often have to tell men they aren’t interested, trying to tell them gently that they are taken. (There is the joke of “I have a boyfriend.” out of the blue to the most innocuous things.) This is a consequence of a society that pushes men to be the active pursuer of relationships. It is, frankly, stressful to have every interaction possibly be taken as a signal that you want a relationship. It is easy for me to understand their perspective because it feels like how my PTSD manifested. Trauma is hard to deal with, and being understanding and accomodating can also be hard, too.
There are a lot of single women I know that are very much architects of their own misery. They have super shallow dating standards, unrealistic expectations, and this mentality that if a man is attractive enough red flags are just misunderstanding.
Very much applies to anyone of any gender, so I’m not sure of the issue. I have seen this in cis-men, cis-women, trans-men, trans-women, enbies, gay men, lesbian women, and so on. This is not exclusive to women, and never will be.
- There are multi hundred member Facebook groups of women in every city that gossip about the men they date. This is obviously toxic, but the organizers frame it as a #metoo thing so it’s widely considered acceptable.
Okay? Don’t date them? I don’t see the issue, but discussing your partners isn’t particularly weird, and men do this too, and if it bothers you, well, don’t date anyone who does it.
- Basically everything I mentioned would be considered absolutely unacceptable if genders were reversed, but if you bring this up then you’ll get a pseudo academic lecture about historical oppression and the patriarchy that basically boils down to “it’s different when I do it”.
There’s some truth to that. Women are, ostensibly, an oppressed group, having less rights than men do, as well as being the one responsible when they get pregnant. They maintain a level of risk that most men do not have to face (though you could consider it a different type of risk, since men also face their own adversities that women typically do not.)
However, that’s irrelevant because none of the things you listed were women-exclusive behaviors, but I figured I would explain why it might be important just in case.
- This isn’t a big deal at all, but it’s sort of ridiculous that most women I meet both consider themselves feminist but will get peeved if men don’t pay for the date.
Don’t date them, then? I mean, I get it. I like when my dates offer to split, and I do judge them if they don’t. But it’s definitely silly to bring up as though they aren’t a feminist for engaging in that behavior. Progress is made incrementally, and sometimes we aren’t aware lf our own biases.
I support queer identities, but have become more conservative in my idea of monogamy and commitment.
Hey man, monogamy is a dating choice, just like ENM. No one makes you have to be one or the other. It is okay to be monogamous, but no one has ever oppressed monogamous people.
I even briefly considered staying home this election when it looked like the main line of attack democrats were gonna do was just to call republicans weirdos over and over again until November, because I’m personally just done associating myself with middle school mean girl politics.
It is really weird to me that you thought calling people weird for legitimately fascist behavior as a way of denormalizing that behavior was somehow a step too far, but the behavior that provoked it wasn’t, as if they hadn’t attempted to call the behavior out beforehand and were ignored.
If that was gonna dissuade you, then I think you might have bigger problems.
Jesus fucking christ why do I bother. You didn’t ask because you wanted to actually know what I thought. You just wanted to lecture me why I’m wrong. There was absolutely nothing I could have said that you wouldn’t have used as a launching off point.
I did ask because I wanted to know. I just thought they were reasons to come to a different conclusion. Societal and cultural pressures on men aren’t dealt with to the same level as women, and we do leave men to fend for themselves because many men learned a set of behaviors that were tolerated until they weren’t. And that change can feel unfair. I think we can express masculinity in a positive way, allow us to focus on positive character traits and not physical ones.
There was a sentiment that you were hurt by someone who was ENM, and whether that was because you tried ENM and didn’t like it or whatever, it did seem to be tacked onto your perception of women. I just thought I’d try and give another view of it, in the off-chance that you or someone else reading this needed some more perspective.
You didn’t read my comment with an open mind. You asked for my input so you could give me specific things to lecture about.
I am not in an “ethical non monogamous” relationship. I have never been. However I have seen multiple men in long term relationships get strung along because their partner decided they want to leverage dating apps to have a harem. It has always ended up being a slow motion train wreck, that always ends up essentially being akin to cheating plus gaslighting. They always justify it in the same way you are doing.
You are sexist, plain and simple. You are sexist because you hold men and women to completely different standards in a comical way. You just use liberal rhetoric to justify it.
Your mentality is incredibly common. The world is full of assholes justifying shitty behavior under the guise of liberalism. It’s just an updated version of how evangelicals operated in the 80s and 90s. I’m sick of giving this shit a free pass.
Then your issue isn’t with ENM. It’s with men (I should also note that this equally applies to women and nonbinary people, but we’ll ignore them for now) staying in an ENM relationship that they clearly do not want. Why are they staying in that relationship? It’s worth exploring that.
Is it loneliness? Is it dependency? Is it a fear of not being able to find another partner? These are issues that we don’t often explore and try to help in men.
I definitely am sexist, likely in ways I don’t even know. I am working to fix those biases as I encounter them. It is tough, though in this particular situation, I don’t see those biases, so I’m trying not to be inconsiderate. I think I am holding men, women, and non-binary people to the same standard in this case.
But you are directly holding women responsible for ENM relationships when they didn’t really do anything wrong. If a man did the same thing, would you have an issue with it? If you want a harem and tell everyone in the harem about it, what’s the problem?
You know you can be on the left without falling into the trap of identity politics. Many (most) of us that consider ourselves leftists also find liberals annoying, and liberalism is not the highest ideal of the left as common notions in the US would have you believe.
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So my post was explicitly about how I dismissed a lot of things I read on the internet as BS until I encountered them in real life. The part about “ethnical non monogamy” was something I didn’t truly believe until I saw it more than once, including some explicit details at a 4th of July party provided by a wife with a visibly uncomfortable husband.
What is your definition of “outside”?
I think their cope is that “people aren’t mentioning that but they think it” etc
The Woke Police ™ have eyes on every wall.
I’m pretty sure political extremism works the same way.
I have friends from high school who fell into the alt-right rabbit hole. They are obsessed with transgenderism. If you believe their depressing timelines, trans people are absolutely everywhere, behaving like total degenerates and grooming kids left and right. They send me an unhealthy amount of videos to prove their claims.
Meanwhile in the real world, I’ve encountered maybe 5 trans people that I recognized as such, and they were behaving normally, and not one tried to groom my kids! But if I tell them that they dismiss it on account of my woke mind virus / Trump derangement syndrome. They’re single, don’t have kids, and spend most of their time doomscrolling or watching the French version of Fox News, but they know better than me what’s going on in my kids’ school…
As time goes on I’ve noticed more and more of it is just projection.
Terminally online people who want to feel special about knowing something that other people don’t. And they have to tell everyone around them how they are special by sharing their degenerate ideas all the time. Honestly, the incels are less damaging.
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This sounds scaringly similar to a country in the Middle East heavily supported by the US.
It’s a kind of useful to have websites like reddit and 4chan to accuse of fostering thought bubbles, hate speech, and victimhood.
Interacting face-to-face with non-degenerates results in normal chat. Whoda thunk?
Anon learns that outdoors is fake and gay.
Because online, people only talk about those things.
In the real world, they are doing them. And so much more. But usually when you’re not looking.
interact with people
Instructions unclear, helicoptered my dick around but there appeared to be no ceiling fan.
And now the park security is approaching with tasers. I guess playgrounds aren’t considered America!
