Im a non-US non-Voter. But I feel the whole “every vote not for harris is a vote for trump” is quite frankly bullshit. People raising concern for palestinian are not trolling, or russian bots or selfish. You just disagree with them and are resorting to name calling.
Here are some facts:
A) early polls show that in swing states, votes for jill stein hurt trump more than harris.
B) if a third party gets more than 5%, this unlocks federal funding for the next election.
C) voting third party shows the actual voter sentiment of tiredness with the two main candidates. It incentivises other politicians to either form more parties or for the main parties to have candidates that represent the population better.
If everyone just votes for trump or harris, in 4 years you guys will be standing in the same place as now or 2016. It was the exact same rhetoric in 2016 “lesser of two evils”. Obviously something needs to be changed.
I don’t agree with your sentiment of “both bad”. The democrat voters sympathise a lot more with Palestinians than Republican voters. If Trump gets into the white house he has a lot more political breathing space to continue and support the genocide.
Do you remember the Muslim ban he tried to make back when he was president? Biden is an asshole and he lacks the balls to stand up to israel and cut the military aid but Trump can do a lot worse like support an offensive against Iran, Israel’s ultimate goal.
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Hey, I’m not denying anything. I’m very aware of the situation and what’s happening. I think you’re just not aware of how bad the Trump presidency was for Palestine before Oct 7
I am not telling anyone to vote for trump that guy is for sure bad. USA needs a more progressive leader, more than harris/biden, not just for the sake of US citizens but also everybody else in the world.
Everyone who doesn’t support a corporatist duopoly is lazy, dumb, and/or working for the geopolitical rival to my dominant hegemonic country!
One can only wonder why you have not convinced more people with your message and Harris is now losing.
Who else is looking forward to–regardless of the outcome of this election–being told throughout 2025 that it is of vital importance that we get in line with the Democratic party above all else so that we can ensure that the Republican candidate does not win the 2030 election?
It’s like we learned nothing from history:
Democrats constantly coming up against fascism and fumbling the bag is always someone else’s fault.
Nader, Howard Dean, ACORN, Citizen’s United, the SCOTUS, lazy uniformed voters, radical leftists and tankies, the Internet, the DSA, Russia, 16000 green party voters in a state with 4.5M ballots cast.
Two organizations are never to blame. You can’t blame the Democrats, because they are the most hyper-competent data-driven poll-optimized party to ever exist. And you can’t blame the Republicans, because they just worked harder to win based on their strong fundamentals and simply convinced more people with their very popular fascist policies.
When Dems win, they have to compromise with Republicans to achieve a bipartisan consensus. When Dems lose, they have to capitulate to the Republicans because that’s what the voters asked for.
Paid to fucking lose. I swear to God.
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Social media psyops don’t require all of the people to be puppets. You just spread some ideas around that get picked up by normal people, make some opinions get seen by the right people, etc. They are mostly not starting fires, but are simply adding a tiny bit of fuel here and there, which gets amplified by the internet.
All of the excessive online moderation actually works against it. When I started using the internet, there was a golden rule: “don’t believe anything on the internet”. Nowadays people think platforms will only show them the truth, but in reality you’re being put into a filterbubble, an echo chamber of an opinion that keeps fueling itself.
Classic tactic of accusing your opponent of what you’re doing.
What on Earth are you trying to say?
“Some of you may die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” is exactly your stance with Palestinians.
By arguing against the candidate who has told Israel to do whatever it wants and accused Dems of not supporting Israel hard enough?
That is an, uhhhh, interesting take.
Dude Trump is lying. How do you not get that? Biden and Harris have done everything they can for Israel. It’s in Trump’s favor to lie about that and make it seem like he can do more, but he really can’t. We’re giving them money, weapons, and now even soldiers as fast as we can.
Lol, is your position literally “America couldn’t possibly give more weapons to Israel!” ?
It doesn’t matter. They’re already covering for them as much as they can and they can only give so much. They’re already vetoing for them at the UN, sending cops and SWAT at students, and demonizing them in the press. They’ve denied them speaking times at the DNC, only talked about Israel in interviews, and Biden has already said no one has supported Israel more than me. This is the Democrats btw.
It’s adorable and worrying that you think that’s as bad as you think America could make things for the Middle East.
“Oh no! The Dems didn’t let Palestineans speak at the DNC! Clearly, there’s no way trump could cook up anything worse than that!”
By supporting someone who has their blood on their hands and is fully supportive of the ongoing genocide. Pretty cold take, actually.
And the alternative is more dead Palestineans.
Believe it or not, the world is not as you wish it to be, it just is. And it’s for us to do as best we can for others given the real world constraints.
As there are two options and one is worse for Palestineans, I support the one that is better for them.
It’s not super complicated.
You have to support 99% Hitler who wants to hand out cookies before committing mass slaughter because if you don’t you’re supporting 100% Hitler and no cookies, which would make one a monster.
There are actually more options beyond those, if people would take them. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy to say that other options aren’t viable. It’s better to try to fight against that than to be complicit in supporting it. If it’s impossible, then it would be better to boycott the system altogether. Under no circumstances is supporting genocide morally justified.
Helping trump IS supporting genocide.
What other options are there in a FPTP system?
democrats : This is the most important election in our lifetime, we need you to vote to save democracy.
Third party voters : Yeah and under a Democracy I intend To freely use my vote according to my beliefs and interests.
democrats: Nooooooy, not like that 🤬
America doesn’t actually have a democracy. You only get a remotely democratic choice between D and R. And even that choice is severely compromised. If you think you have the democratic choice to vote third party, then you’ve been brainwashed by pro-america propaganda
America is an oligarchy.
Join the movement for ranked choice voting so we can end the duopoly!
Missourians who see this, vote NO on 7 to stop the ban!
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https://lemmy.ml/post/21672888
3rd party voting hurts trump more than kamala.
3rd party voting is a good thing
And if the third party leftist voters voted for Harris and voted in Democratic primaries, we might not be in this mess.
Democrats have primaries?
Oh you sweet summer child.
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Polls are bullshit, quit relying on them.
You’re right, the polls that show Jill Stein having no chance in this election are bullshit. She does have a chance, I’m voting for her
She didn’t win a single EC vote in 2012, or in 2016, let alone anywhere close to the 270 needed. This election isn’t going to be any different.
“
somehundreds of thousands of youmaywill die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” is exactly what vote blue no matter who people are saying to arab americans who are uncomitted votersAnd if Trump is elected, ALL of them will die if he gets his way and he admitted as much.
It’s too late in the game to bother educating you on this, but it’s never too late to call out your bullshit.
I will say- it’s very telling how the closer we get to the election, the more .ml accounts are showing up to “nuh-uhhhh! everything any everyone that disagrees with them. Even when proof is provided.
You guys must have recently received your marching orders and are working overtime to accomplish your goal!
Можешь заменить меня? Я иду за едой
More will die under Trump than Harris.
Anyone who is against Israel’s genocide is not voting for Trump.
Anyone who is against Israel’s genocide is not voting for Trump.
What’s your point?
That your statement seems disingenuous in this context because only a vote for Trump helps him win. No one’s vote is owed to any candidate. If people want to vote for a third party that better represents their values (or no candidate - even though I disagree with this position), they should be allowed to do so without active or passive false blame being slung at them that they are somehow enabling the very genocide that they are against.
That your statement seems disingenuous in this context because only a vote for Trump helps him win.
Not really. This is almost verbatim the trolly problem. And people who are voting 3rd party are in essence standing by and doing nothing as the trolly runs over more people than it otherwise would. You have the power to help prevent harm and you’re doing effectively nothing. You share culpability with Trump voters for that.
No one’s vote is owed to any candidate.
I never said otherwise.
If people want to vote for a third party that better represents their values (or no candidate - even though I disagree with this position), they should be allowed to do so without active or passive false blame being slung at them that they are somehow enabling the very genocide that they are against.
If people want to vote for a third party, they should do so in a system where 3rd parties are actually viable, and can be chosen without ceding power to your ideologically furthest opponents. We don’t live in that system. We have to reduce harm where we can, and 3rd party isn’t going to do that, at best it will just split the vote, and cede power to the guy who wants to see Gaza turned to nuclear glass.
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Dude. Trump is already complaining that we are supporting Israel enough. You think he’s magically going to change his mind and pull the plug on supporting them once he’s in office? Fuckin delulu
You think Harris is going to magically change her mind when she’s the one doing the current genocide? Trump lies btw. Like all the time. It’s in his interest to make it seem like Biden isn’t helping Israel enough because the Republican party has more fervent Zionists but he’s easily been the most pro-Israel President in history.
I don’t think either will drastically change. That’s the point. Trump will give more support to Israel, and Harris will continue similar to other presidents and give them middling support.
You seem to be under the impression that I like Harris. So let me be perfectly clear, I do not like any of the candidates. But it’s still important to put effort into electing the one that will do the least damage overall and Harris will certainly do less damage and even has the potential to do SOME good. Trump will only do damage, and more of it, and certainly more irrevocable damage. Especially when most of his groupies are all signed on to and pushing project 2025.
This isn’t only about Israeli support. But even if it was Trump will give them everything they want.
I know it’s not about Palestine, but that’s exactly why this meme is ironic. Rather than joining with their fellow Palestinian-Americans and their allies to pressure Harris, Democrats are going the other way and demanding undying loyalty and no criticism or protest. They’re basically sacrificing them for their own pet issues. It’s kinda funny actually.
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The amount of people who rationalize arming a genocide is “ok” if a black lady does it, is more than alarming to me.
Literally no one is saying this.
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She is also the acting VP and can’t really dissociate herself from the current position. She has also talked much more about ending the conflict, about Israel crossing lines and has signalled as hard as ahe can that things would be different, e.g., snubbing Bibi and not meeting him when he came to America (which drove conservatives apoplectic.)
The reality is she is going to continue arming Israel until Israel illegally settles all of Gaza. You cannot tell me that her 60 minutes response inspired any amount of confidence on a ceasefire. She totally ignored all of the reports about US arms being used on refugee camps and jumped straight to a single attack against a retaliatory strike towards Israel and reiterated her belief that the US is inextricably linked to Israel. She reiterated the nonsense that Israel has a right to defend itself against the peoples they have oppressed, subjugated, and genocided.
The reality is she is going to continue arming Israel until Israel illegally settles all of Gaza.
Oh awesome I was looking for one of you people. So - who’s gonna win the World Series? I really need this, my bookie’s already told me he’s gonna cut me off and I don’t like the sound of that!
And trump has encouraged Israel to accelerate their efforts.
No one rational is accepting or attracted to harris’stance on Israel. We’re attracted to the idea that it will be worse under trump, with a massive dose of acceleration, bald faced racism including the likely mass deportation of Muslim refugees, and global chaos due to his being 1. Incompetent and insecure 2. A likely unwitting agent of global enemies like Putin.
After all Gaza concepts are discussed and balanced, trump will also materially endanger minority and at risk groups in the US due to blatant policy, stochastic terrorism emitted from the oval office itself, and the appointment of corrupt conservative federal judges that will hold back progressive progress for decades to come. Again, this is important, but not more important than people dying in Gaza. But an American voter should certainly care about America TOO.
For these reasons a vote for Harris is effective but unsavory harm reduction, as at least during a Harris presidency advocacy and progress is even remotely possible, or even legal. Trump has made clear his interest in punishing those who are not aligned with his world, and that’s nearly everyone on the planet.
Usually they live in blue states that will partially insulate them from the consequences. Or they’re young and don’t understand knock on effects yet.
People refusing to vote for Harris becuase of a foreign conflict they understand nothing about is peak stupidty.
I got into this argument the other day. People’s arrogance and lack of common sense was disappointing.
I’m going to be 100% with yall that comment and post this shit.
Before I go on, let me say I voted dem and know they would be better for the world over Trump.
But is that’s the standard and argument you expect people to vote for, you are in for a rude awakening… To anyone reading this or agreeing with these outright insulting comments and posts about how you know better need to take a long look in the mirror. Because…
If the only support you are giving to the Palestinian and Arab people is voting Dem and having arguments about lesser evils, then you are not helping the situation.
Yes vote dem. But get off your ass and protest, donate, and support those communities currently harmed be democrats disastrous Gaza and Middle East policy. That’s how you sway hearts and minds. These fucking backhanded, self serving, ignorant posts and comments won’t stop anything but prove to those communities that the democrats base does not give a shit about anything that doesn’t directly effect themselves.
Yall are missing the forest from the trees. Not voting for the light genicidal party nor the full genicidal party isn’t some gotcha win for Trump. It’s a failure on our part to demand our party doesn’t continue using our votes to do harm.
call your senators daily and demand they publicly denounce Israel and the IDF. Donate money to organizations that are saving lives destroyed by our bombs. March with your fellow Palestinian and Arab brothers and sisters. Divest and boycott any business with ties to Isreal and the IDF.
But Ya im sure comparing individuals that have lost friends and family to bombs provided by the Democrat administration, to Lord Farquaad. We’re better than this. This is just conservative tactics used on a population that we need to vote blue! We are better than this! show some empathy and get involved. I have Palestinian friends and they would spit in your face if you said this kind of shit to their face because it’s removing the humanity of the 40k people killed by Isreal via bombs provided by Biden/Harris. If you/we don’t care why should they?
Edit: just realized how tone deaf this post is. Who’s more like Lord Farquaad? Palestinian and Arab Americans who’s friends and family are being displaced, starved, and bombed? Or literally the leadership that didn’t even allow Palestinians to speak at a convention and is currently providing bombs and aid to Isreal?
Thank you so much for this detailed response. I think I’m gonna vote for Kamala, not because I think Kamala is gonna do good things for the Middle East.
I’m voting because either we get a president that may or may not listen to protesters, or we’ll get one that will wipe out protesting nationwide.
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Oh the irony here.
If there are only two viable options, not helping one is the same as helping the other.
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If there’s a toddler about to walk into traffic and you choose to keep swiping on tinder or whatever instead of helping the kid, that kid’s death is still on you.
Samw thing with not stopping trump.
It’s really not complicated.
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Hey kiddo, instead of deflecting to Palestine, how about you explain how either this voting instance is different than the analogy I’ve given or admit that you’d be fine letting the kid die because of whatever.
If you’re going to be incorrectly smug about voting third party, try answering a reasonable question about it.
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What’s trumps excuse? What’s your excuse? What’s God’s excuse?
I’m tired of all this. I take full responsibility. If I had done more this tragedy could have been averted. I’m sorry to those who have suffered because of my inadequacy. Render what ever judgment you will on me and in the future, if there is one for scum like me, I will try to do better.
What’s trumps excuse?
who cares? he never had a chance at my vote to begin with for a large number of reasons. we can just add it to the pile of shitty things trump is okay doing. but we already knew he was willing to commit genocide. this is a surprise to no one who as paid attention.
What’s God’s excuse?
dunno if i could find him i’d ask him.
What’s your excuse?
for what? not supporting harris? I’ve been very clear on this: genocide.
I’m tired of all this.
so am I friend, so am I. I’m not the one running around trying to convince people to vote for a particular candidate by shaming others using intellectually dishonest claims of ‘helping trump’, ‘both parties were going genocide, pick the lesser evil’, etc.
I want people to get off their ass and vote. I didnt vote for harris or trump, I voted down ballot. I’m also not in a swing state or a state with shitty womens rights. harris is going to win my state regardless. That being said the liberals running around spouting nonsense about helping trump when its clearly and demonstrably not true is going to lead to people not voting at all.
And that my friend is why I call this shit out. because they might have voted down ticket regardless which can only help the situation. and quite frankly im happy to treat people with the same level of vitriol that they treat others. Now I will continue campaigning against genocide and getting ranked choice done, please volunteer so people can stop being asses to each other.
If by “third party” you mean Jill Stein, well…
😂 those in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. Funny that harris has one supporting her too.
Is this a bot account or something? Every post has obvious typing mistakes and they all say utter bullshit. When shortly scrolling through their comments I didn’t see a single upvote.
Every comment is on the usa election. Account created 2 weeka ago.
That’s good enough for me. Blocked.
Stop blocking these people! It just amplifies their voices!
I don’t hear anything
beep boop.
and yes, everyone comment is on the election because thats all I particularly care about atm ;) please support rank choice in your state so this nonsense can stop. I’m tired of watching my country kill people for no good fucking reason. I’m tired of watching people shit on 3rd party voters for having a moral conscience that is clearly superior to the majority of liberals.
I am sorry every argument against 3rd party voters is so easily torn apart by simple addition demonstrating that its harmless. if more people had a spine maybe harris wouldn’t be supporting a genocide. but then again maybe she would. either way hard pass.
Did you even read this article? This is what Liz Cheney actually said:
“Reactionaries make statements. Conscientious and thoughtful people take action because they know moral statements will never change the world.”
If you’re interpreting that statement as indicating support for Apartheid, then you clearly have problems with reading comprehension.
In any case, there’s a big difference between Liz Cheney’s bad opinion in 1987, and the guy who founded the “Knights of the Ku Klux Klan” in Louisiana. There’s quite a gap in scale there.
Your “stone” seems to be more of a bouncy ball.
Dick Cheney sweet heart. Dick. But liz is also a shit human. Seems like harris is attracting alot of them with a warm embrace. 🤔
But the article you linked is about an op-ed that Liz Cheney wrote while in college? I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make about Dick.
indeed it is. that op-ed is just as bad. anyways.
Dick Cheney voted against imposing economic sanctions on South Africa’s apartheid government and opposed a resolution calling for Nelson Mandela to be released from prison, saying Mandela was a “terrorist”—a position Cheney defended as recently as 2000, when he ran for vice president.
there are a lot of things about dick we can reference here if you want. but that was the relevant bit. I was just pointing in a direction for you to get you started.
Dick Cheney is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Incredible that liberals will defend the Cheneys, not sure if it’s that you don’t care about people’s lives if they happened to be born in another country, or if you’re just willing to defend anyone and anything if you think it’ll help you win.
How did Stein’s response to David Duke’s endorsement compare to Harris’ response to Cheney’s? Did she accept the endorsement?
Its the part you said about lives in other countries not mattering.
The propaganda there is strong.
Gotta love people trying to use maþ to defend someþing ð actual maþ clearly says is ð complete fucking opposite of helpful.
😂 gotta love people who fail to contextualize math. Let me know you when you determine what helpful means to me, was that even the goal? Kind of an important detail dont you think?
Someday you’ll realize that your failure to understand motivation was exactly one of the points i was making. But alas i fear that day is far off.
49k votes for Stein in Pennsylvania, Trump won by 47k
32k votes for Stein in Wisconsin, Trump won by 22k
51k votes for Stein in Michigan, Trump won by 10k.
Third party voters are useful idiots.
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I am not reading that.
Sorry i shouldn’t have made it so advanced. Ill try to come up with a simpler example in the future!
But maybe sit out of the political bitch fest if you can’t handle how basic arithmetic works eh?
If harris or the dnc want votes, then promote and deliver on policies that people want. If you cant well thats a them problem.
Copy pasting the same smug wall of text every time is not the political own you think it is. In fact, it makes people not want to read it.
Maybe you should get off of the internet and enjoy the nature outside. It’s good for people, y’know?
Try taking your own advice. A bit of time away from a screen should help with these feeling that everyone who fails to vote for Harris is a Trump suppprter.
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Maybe you should convince the democrats to try and win some third party votes then. Can’t blame people for voting according to their values.
I’m sure you call multiple groups of americans idiots though. Thats definitely not the same thing the republicans do to minorities right?
You’re doing the good discrimination right?
“Useful idiot” has a specific meaning.
Yes you are very intellectual indeed.
Yes, using a common term makes me an intellectual 🤡
I like your clown outfit.
No one on lemmy has ever made this argument and as usual this community of redditors in disguise believes in the hopium of a candidate more conservative than Obama will change her mind about genocide.
And that people are just gonna vote for her with that reasoning.
no one on lemmy has ever made this argument
Proceeds to make the same argument.
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How about actually listen to Palestinian voices instead of your misplaced savior rubbish? They are the ones asking that we refuse to vote for Kamala.
Which Palestinean voices, in Palestine, are you thinking of?
Absolutely. The goal here should be: make it easier for her opponent, the man who, in a not-at-all inflammatory gesture, moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Clearly aligned with the Palestinian cause. Your strategic thinking is subtle yet effective, the long game is stupid, right?
I think when people vote the voice they should listen more is their own voice. Their needs and what’s better for them.
Maybe they don’t want to be prosecuted for their gender identity or sexuality so their vote for Harris is a survival vote.
That’s my opinion as an outsider, at least.
Let me take a stab at this. As a non American non voter who is interested in the outcome of the election.
There are 3 parties to this discussion: the Harris campaign (Democrats in general), the Gaza issue voter, and the lesser evil voters.
The Gaza issue voters clearly believe a genocide is occuring, sometimes affecting them personally, and funded by their tax dollars. They would like some concessions from the Dems (the only likely party to take any action) and their only bargaining chip is their vote. It is clear to me that, if a large number of Americans felt strongly and this way, action would happen.
The Harris campaign has been non responsive on this issue, trying to tread the thin line, where they not only look powerless politically, but also unwilling to take a moral stand for what is right.
The lesser evil voters are absolutely correct that she is still better than Trump, and in more ways than just Middle east.
What I think all 3 parties need to do:
The lesser evil camp, instead of mocking the hold outs, needs to pressure the Harris campaign to make a change. Maybe even join them! (See the last point)
The Harris campaign, needs to think long and hard about what they stand for, and the implications of the Republican-lite gamble paying off. There needs to be some fear of losing voters who they cannot take for granted as they shift to the right.
Finally the Gaza voters. Its fine to play the game of chicken, keep screaming as loud as you can demanding change, but ultimately (secretly) get to the ballot and vote D.
There’s a reason the Democrats always end up tilting right and trying to court some moderate Republicans. There’s a reason Harris is spending her efforts trying to pick off some moderate Republicans in the suburbs rather than trying to appease the hard left.
The problem with the hard left voters is that they are fickle and contrarian by nature. Yes, they’re talking about Palestine this year, but that’s just the cause of the day. The truth is, many on the left will simply look for any excuse not to sully their precious clean hands by voting for a mainstream liberal party. They look for an excuse, any excuse will do. And every four year, they find one. For Kamala it’s Gaza. For Biden it was the Crime Bill. For Hillary it was Bernie. There’s always some grievance the far left reactionaries will find, their precious excuse not to be one of the normies and vote for the mainstream candidate. They’re professional contrarians to the core. They start with the end goal - be a cool outsider above the sludge of normal average politics. And then they work backwards from there. Gaza is simply the cause of the day.
Note, this doesn’t happen with the far right. The far right instead recognizes that it’s better to support the mainstream right party, but to work continuously to pull them further and further to the extreme. This strategy is why they’ve been far more successful than the far left. The far right holds their nose, votes for the mainstream candidate, and works to pull the party further to the right in the future. The far left stamps their feet, demands perfection, and takes their ball and goes home. They always find an excuse to not participate. Ultimately, they just want to be the cool kids that are too cool to participate in the normie fight. They will always find an excuse not to support the Democratic candidate. They’re petulant children, not voters candidates can actually appeal to.
This is why Dems always pander to the right. It’s simply a better strategy. Far left voters are fickle, unreliable, and will always invent a new purity test. They’re ultimately politically irrelevant, and they have no one but themselves to blame.
I disagee a bit here. The reason democrats shift to the right is not because of some intrinsic values and republicans and democrats carry. It is due to the sustained (false or cherry picked) propaganda by the right to create issues from nothing (migrant crime, trans issues), and the lack of response by the democrats to this messaging. Mind you Im not talking about the Election cycle, Im talking about the 3 years in between. The reason they didnt tilt right towards issues like abortion is because we have been hammering the counter message for 2 or 3 years, ever since Roe is overturned.
When youve already ceded ground with the public perception that we have immigrant crime, you have no option but to tackle the “perceived” problem by being tough on immigration.
They’re professional contrarians to the core. They start with the end goal - be a cool outsider above the sludge of normal average politics. And then they work backwards from there. Gaza is simply the cause of the day.
Thank you for so eloquently expressing this (and not just the part I’ve quoted… the whole thing). I wish more people would read and consider what you’ve written here.
the lesser evil camp refuses to pressure the harris campaign and the harris campaign refuses to self reflect on their republican lite gamble; but the gaza voters should give up their only bargaining chip and vote for them anyways?
I respect your choice and conviction to “let it all burn”, and without people like you there would never be incentive for the Dems to move left. That said, this is not the action I would take, there are far too many things wrong with the Rs right now.
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the republicans are predictable and their descent into madness was easy to see for the last 60 years, since goldwater.
the democrats are more troublesome partially because they have the ability to be better and extol the better aspects of humanity; but don’t for the money and for a team win at all costs; especially the cost of caving in on every single one of your principles just to beat the republicans who don’t give af about principles. the republicans pretend they do care about principles, but only as a means to keep misleading their voter base and now it’s the same with the democrats too.
i can’t convince myself they’re the lesser evil anymore when they nakedly do the same things and are actively enabling a genocide.
americans have committed MANY documented genocides and most of them were committed on the the people i descend from; i refuse to participate in perpetuating this generational trauma just so that a couple hundred rich people can keep getting richer.
it’s not a team sport for me like it is for you and also not about making the dems move left; it’s about not repeating the history that turned me into a vulnerable minority and, most importantly, not helping inflict it on others in the name of the almighty dollar and a blue team win. you can try to convince yourself that voting democrat is the best course of action; but most of us here, especially me, have been doing that for the last 60 years and here we are, deciding between an active genocider and someone who wishes they were.
up until now i’ve held my nose to vote for democrats and now genocide is a line that’s too far for me. if we continue to participate in the same form we are now, it continue will get worse as it has been for the last 60 years.
Yes. That’s how the two party system works. Dems are still miles better than Republicans on the issue, and thus don’t need to improve. It sucks, but that’s the hand that’s been dealt I don’t see any better strategy to help the people of Gaza. If you see one, feel free to share.
we’ve been holding our nose and voting for democrats this entire time and now our choices has descended into choosing between an active genocider and someone who wishes that they were.
each time we’ve descended into a madness into this country; there’s been another crazier level that we squabble about, but end up it doing anyways because democrats are the lesser evil; i don’t want to know what’s crazier than a genocide.
if you’re not american or western european; you too should be wondering what’s crazier than genocide for the world’s only super power to consider and enact because it will happen if we can’t change our political trajectory.
Do you have a better idea, though?
there are plenty of ideas and many of them have been enacted by other countries; the problem is that both the democrats and republicans are effective at suppressing them to maintain their duopoly.
A better idea about what should be done now. Everybody knows that things could be better.
ideas that we can do now are also shared and just as suppressed as any of the others.
the one i’m going to do is voting third party. i live in a state that will never vote for a republican so a third party vote has no bearing on cheeto hitler’s re-election. the american voting system is setup so that, even if it voted for trump, it still wouldn’t matter in my state.
I just did. I think they should cave (and vote Harris), but the rest of the crowd needs to spend time on drawing concessions from Harris instead of alienating the left. It might just be that the dems are way past redemption with their recent Liz Cheney tours.
There’s also the fact that Harris has to appeal to the electoral college. She’s not just trying to win our votes.
If she took a firm stance on stopping the killing in Gaza the electoral college could very easily hand their votes to trump. Like they did in 2016.I’m fairly certain it’s a big contributing factor as to why democrats keep inching to the right on certain issues. The electoral college has too much power. At the end of the day it’s their votes that count, so Harris has to appeal to them too.
If she took a firm stance on stopping the killing in Gaza the electoral college could very easily hand their votes to trump.
Why couldn’t they do a better job pushing Palestine as a civil rights issue and raising awareness among their voter base like they’ve successfully done with LGBTQ and women’s rights? Or at the very least pretend to support Israel to appear more centrist while stopping the genocide instead of pretending to support Palestinians then handing Israel tons of weapons? Plus it seems like many voters are more concerned about our own economy than what’s happening on the other side of the world, so regarding combining pro-Palestine with their current economic policies I don’t see how that would be a big issue in attracting undecided voters. The only real obstacle I can think of here is donors and the media beholding the party to their interests, which is a much bigger problem than just the electoral college.
Edit: Wait I think I misread your post, I assumed you were talking about swing states controlling the outcome not the electors themselves.
I wonder if there’s some misunderstanding on your part about the electoral college or if I’m just not interpreting your phrasing correctly. It’s not an entity to appeal to, it’s a flawed system that has subsets of the popular vote represented by electors who are pledged to a certain candidate.
The whole system is basically fucked. The Supreme Court can be bought and so can other politicians via “gratuities”… including the electoral college.
They already did not honor the popular vote in 2016 for whatever reason, and it’s not the first time it’s happened in recent history.
I can imagine Harris doesn’t want to give them anymore reason to just say fuck it and hand us another trump presidency.
So I can say now with certainty that you’re not clear on how the EC works in the US. Unless there is a faithless elector, the chosen electors represent the majority vote in their state (or district, in the case of Maine and Nebraska). Some states, due to higher population, have a greater number of voters represented by each elector.
The EC has no mandate to follow the national popular vote. That is by design. Electors sent to the EC are beholden to the popular vote in their state (or district).
Campaigns do not directly court the EC, but they do game the system by focusing on states with a large number of electors and traditionally narrow margins in the popular vote. That’s where we get the term “battleground states.”
So the “for whatever reason” you allude to in 2016 was absolutely for a known reason: Clinton won in heavily lopsided blue states with high populations while losing in lower population red states and closely contested swing states. Faithless electors did come into play that year, but their impact was negligible. Clinton lost handily in the EC despite taking the popular vote.
It’s not that not don’t understand how things are supposed to work… it’s that fewer and fewer parts of the government are functioning free of corruption.
Forgive me for not assuming the electoral college is functioning outside of that type of influence.
Learning how things actually function vs what we were taught are two different things.
I doubt the Democrats will learn their lesson when they lose. They didn’t became more progressive when Hillary lost when the Bernie voters stayed home. The only shift to the left in the party that happened was when incumbent democrats got replaced by outsiders like AOC. So if you want to punish Democrats do it during a primary and vote an incumbent out.
So much this. They will go where the votes are.
People who are so worried about their left wing voter purity to vote Dem when the alternative is explicitly fascist are going to come across as unwinnable as voters and will have no effect whatsoever on Dem strategizing any more than insane racists who vote for Trump because they like the idea of mass deportation of all the ethnic minorities in the USA; the kind that tell Native Americans to go back to their own country are not worth the Dems pursuing on policy grounds either.
If your vote is clearly unwinnable and you chose the greater evil from some sort of backwards purity argument, what good is being better than the Republicans on policy grounds for winning your vote?
It is not winning elections that forces the Democrats right, it is losing to the right that forces the Democrats right, you know, to get the votes they have a hope of getting.
It might not matter anyway, because Trump told a rally a while back that if he was elected, they wouldn’t have to vote again and since then has accused Harris of planning to end democracy, and pretty much every accusation from Trump is to cover for an admission. Project 25 is grim reading for anyone who likes freedom.
So yeah, people who vote in a way that makes things worse for Gaza are putting electoral pressure on the Democrats to support the genocide, because calling for ceasefire, agreeing with Gaza protestors at rallies and putting diplomatic pressure on Netanyahu aren’t enough to get votes for Harris, but are sadly enough to lose her votes from “centrists”.
So if you listen to the “genocidal vice president” folks, and ignore the “finish them” “best King of Israel” Republicans, your third party vote or abstention actually encourages the genocide and in your twisted logic you think that people who care about Gaza choosing to not affect the presidency somehow affects it, and that the country choosing the more genocidal candidate will somehow be interpreted as the people not wanting genocide.
americans have committed lots of documented genocides and it’s about not perpetuating them as someone who descends from the survivors of those genocides.
i do not want to help create another vulnerable minority for the sake of the almighty dollar and a blue team win.
you can try to convince yourself that democrats are the lesser evil, as we’ve all been doing here for generations; yet here we nonetheless given a choice between an active genocider and someone who wishes they were.
the democrat’s movement right wards guarantees that it will continue to get worse and i don’t want to know what’s worse than genocide that everyone ignores.
This is complete trash. There are not 3 issue voters here. There are two. A non-vote for Harris is a full vote for greater support for genocide. A vote for Harris has a chance to change that. Any other thoughts on it are completely ridiculous.
…did…you read what I said?
but ultimately (secretly) get to the ballot and vote D.
By this point, it’s too late. Probably already too late now.
You dumb fucks never realized that your true power is NOT your votes. It’s your voice. It’s the power to convince people to stay home. And you just… kept doing that. There’s no threat to be made; the act of making the threat IS the damage.
I’m so tired dude. At least in a month most of you will forget all about Gaza and I won’t have to hear about it anymore.
Im not sure I understand. Are you comfortable with Harris’ right shift being uncontested by anyone on the left?
In the primary? Contest away.
In the general? Fuck that, fall in line. Any blue is better than literal, actual Nazis.
If the nominee was Bernie, I’d be out there bashing any salty Kamala-or-bust people.
Demecrats should also focus on rural issues more. The city voters are all already democrat and the biggest gains come from appealing to issues of rural voters that increasingly feel as an afterthought of the democrat party.
Agricultural subsidies for owner operated farms is for example is a good policy. Solar panel loans where you use the savings on them to pay them back is another.
That reduces food and power prices then you also need a housing policy.
Finally the Gaza voters. Its fine to play the game of chicken, keep screaming as loud as you can demanding change, but ultimately (secretly) get to the ballot and vote D.
This is how you destroy your credibility and ensure you won’t be listened to on anything. The Democrats count on the two party system (which they are responsible for, in part) to make us fall in line. They’re not going to shift on anything so long as they can write off our objections as empty rhetoric, so long as they can make calculations based on the assumption that we will ultimately fall in line.
The problem is that any stance on Isreal/Gaza by a Democrat will lose them votes. Hence, the wishy-washy, trying to thread the middle, not really saying anything tactic.
Harris has said plenty on gaza. she supports israel.
Yes the problem is that the GOP is the hard right nationalists, and people who have put everything on earth below one specific issue the GOP supports. The DNC is made of everyone else. It is much harder to work with a constituency that is not in any type of alignment.
To keep voting blue/red no matter is how you create the very situation we are in. Punishing politicians is how you get them to work for you and not for themselves and pacs.
