Have seen a few posts popping up recently just straight up calling fo violence barely disguised as memes
Had thought Lemmy had chilled out a bit on that kinda thing for a while but seems to be coming back now
Anyone else noticing the same or just me?
Just yesterday I read a post about a woman being stalked by a supposed Nazi. At least 5 comments were quite literally ‘buy a gun and shoot him’, those had by far the most upvotes. When I said I hope theyre joking, I got downvoted and told you dont joke around when it comes to Nazis.
So yeah, maybe Lemmy is becoming kind of radical.
If saying to kill nazis is radical then call me a fucking Ninja Turtle.
Yeah sure, ‘murder is okay if its the bad guys’. I think Ive heard that somewhere before…
Was it perhaps a story told by a war ravaged world war II veteran?
Tbf, “self defense,” while technically being “violence,” is the only time violence is actually acceptable. She should buy a gun if she’s being stalked by anyone, but of course just buying one isn’t enough. Also needed is practice to learn how to shoot (preferably with an instructor if you can afford it, but you can learn most of that stuff from the right sources online actually like Jerry Miculek’s videos on it, if that’s your only option), carry permit if your state needs it, and learning the laws regarding use of force in your area. Also buy/carry OC spray if it’s legal (for instance it isn’t legal in NYC) in case he ends up being a threat, but not a deadly threat.
Practicing nonviolence is a worthy pursuit and I’m also a proponent of it, but to go so far as to forego self defense in the name of pacifism is just foolish in my personal opinion. The advice isn’t just “shoot him next time you see him,” (that’s called murder lol), it’s “just in case he tries to kill you, be prepared with an Uno reverse card.”
It was not about self defense, they were saying ‘go and shoot that fucker in the face’
Yeah ya can’t do that lol, that’s murder.
Thats what I said, seemed like an unpopular opinion…
I’d believe it, some people on here advocate for killing people all the time, so long as they’re a “CEO, accused-nazi, liberal, landlord, government employee they don’t like, etc.”
The only difference is the immediacy. If exploitative strategies by healthcare companies directly caused harm to you or a loved one, it could very much be interpreted as self-defence to kill their CEO.
Unfortunately not, it would be interpreted as retribution (at least by the courts). Immediacy means something like “guy with knife threatening to stab you right now,” BUT if you pull your gun to do so and he starts walking away that’s it, it’s over, if you shoot him at that point you’ll be argued to be the aggressor and will lose your case. As such, having a claim denied and then traveling to wherever this guy is and likely planning for months is called “premeditation,” not “self defense.”
You may disagree, but that’s the court’s opinion.
Wasn’t the opinion in George Zimmerman case.
True, sometimes juries fail, personally I wouldn’t bet on it and would err on the side of caution but that’s your own choice to make I suppose.
(It also helps if you’re the “right” color shooting the “right” color in the “right” state/county… but… otherwise it helps to have your ducks in a row.)
I genuinely laughed. Politician style or hospitality industry style? I’ve so many questions!
I didn’t think we were talking about the law. I thought we were talking about personal moral considerations, which don’t have much to do with the law or courts.
carry permit if your state needs it, and learning the laws regarding use of force in your area. Also buy/carry OC spray if it’s legal (for instance it isn’t legal in NYC) in case he ends up being a threat, but not a deadly threat.
Those are all laws.
There’s not exactly nuance when you’re dealing with a world that is growing far right, and has only hatred to show.
Maybe the radical is the Nazi, not the need to stamp out Nazism?
The creed everyone should have is: the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. Humanity has fought against fascism 85 years ago, and some people are thinking the same things as fascists now.
Comrade. Do not deny, defend, or depose the past.
The same is happening now as in the quote, just add queers and Muslims to it. I see your perspective, but what you are saying effectively comes over as, “oh no! a poor Nazi getting threatened!”, when the better action would be to stop and think:
Is it better that tolerance is intolerant against intolerance? Or should tolerance mean allowing hatred to destroy that very tolerance?
The alternative would be to call the cops, who would say “we can’t do anything as long as nothing has happened”.
Personally I’d call the nearest Antifa group.
The recent killing of the UHC CEO seems to have pushed all the right buttons in activating people’s bloodlust and mob mentality. But I actually looked at some of the threads on reddit after being a bit taken aback by the reaction on Lemmy, and redditors were being just as violent. So I don’t think it’s Lemmy getting more radical, it’s just the flavor of the week right now to celebrate violence, as long as it’s against the bad guys.
The main doctor Reddit had to delete a whole thread due to bloodlust.
We are rampant for a revolution. Everyone is united in how pissed they are over health insurance. We need to seize this moment.
A successful revolution takes a whole lot more than bloodlust and directionless anger. The emotion is there, but there is no revolutionary framework or ideology in place to direct that feeling towards meaningful change. This seeming “unity” is ephemeral, it’ll be forgotten as soon as the next media cycle starts.
No it won’t. Kill people’s family and they’ll spend years thinking of ways to get revenge. Multiply that by millions. Multiply that by desperate economic conditions. I am one of the people who lost a parent to these ghouls, and I’ve had 13 years to think about it. This killing woke up some deep emotions that aren’t going to go away anytime soon.
We’ve been sitting on a powder keg for a while. It doesn’t take many people to start some shit - a few more assassinations and things will change fast.
We’ve been sitting on a powder keg for a while. It doesn’t take many people to start some shit - a few more assassinations and things will change fast.
Things will change for the worse. We just elected Donald Trump and the government is controlled by conservatives. How exactly are you expecting them to react to CEOs getting assassinated? You think they’re going to come to the table and work out a plan for universal healthcare, a compromise?
Fuck no, they’re going to fight fire with fire. And they’ve already proved they can manufacture consent from average Americans by taking advantage of their stupidity to make them go against their best interests.
I’m sorry for your loss, but this nonsense isn’t going to bring anyone back, it’s just going to lead to even more suffering and violence.
They already fight fire with fire. What’s your solution, continue to lay down and take it? Continue, for decades, to get anally raped with no lube?
As a bullied child, that’s not how this works. You fight back. Drones have proven themselves in Ukraine. A new asymmetrical warfare is coming and it’s best we catch these overprivileged shitheads while they’re still finding their balance in this new world the assassin ushered in. They need to be reminded they are neither invincible nor untouchable.
I’m on your side. You’re speaking out of desperation, lashing out instinctually.
But as I said before, directionless anger will not get you far. You and those like you will surely fail, and all of your rage will amount to nothing.
As they say, when you come at the king, you best not miss. As bad as you feel the situation is now, it could be far, far worse.
You sound like you’re discouraging more assassinations. If so we’re not on the same side.
deleted by creator
I think in general there’s just a lot of people getting to the end of their rope at the moment. This isn’t just hatred directed at insurance companies (although that was certainly the catalyst to get it started), but I think it’s also a reflection of growing agitation towards the upper class
When you see the entire justice system turning into a dry popcorn fart for the rich and powerful it does that to a society that can barely afford groceries.
🤔 These fart metaphors are becoming increasingly obsuscre.
It’s called jumping the fart.
He killed a mass murderer who murdered people who’s names he didn’t even know so rich people could get staggeringly rich.
Like ok, vigilante justice is a mixed bag. But if you’ve ever felt relief at any killing of a dangerous and violent person who victimises the vulnerable then the only reason you wouldn’t feel that now is because you think some words on a scroll change morality.
Radical but not logical. Make a post about a violent criminal who murders someone. And then poll the community if that criminal should get the death penalty. And I’ll bet the majority would say no and be against the death penalty for all convicted criminals. But those same people have no problem cheering on the murder of someone that they don’t like. If a person can live with this contradiction I’d guess that they just aren’t thinking for themselves but following a crowd.
It’s not execution, it’s class war.
It was clearly an execution of an innocent man.
He wasn’t killing anyone.
That’s a naive statement.
The guy was shot with his own words. Nothing innocent about it.
He was shot with bullets by a murderer.
deleted by creator
everyone who isn’t sad he died, really, is honouring his legacy. if you were sad he died, you might as well be pissing in his casket and shitting on his tombstone.
deleted by creator
Using other words to describe murder doesn’t make it different.
Is Ukraine murdering Russians? Is Palestine murdering Israelis? Would it be murder if they killed Putin or Netanyahu?
You seem to think war which has been around since the beginning of time is the same thing as an individual violating civil law and murdering another individual. I find it fascinating reading posts and comments about this incident because it’s as if those who condemn murder are in some way fans of the guy that got murdered. I don’t know anything about him as an individual, but I think it is obscene for the head people of any company to get paid such a huge amount in comparison to the other employees. And in general I think health insurance companies suck. I’m saying that from personal experience. And, I don’t know, but the guy who got murdered may have put into effect policies that fucked many people who deserved insurance benefits and were denied. So was he a bad guy? Probably. But it doesn’t mean murdering him is justified or should be endorsed.
The problem with supporting breaking a law is that eventually someone that you like or admire, but who is hated by a large portion of the country is murdered like this guy. Then all of a sudden it’s a problem. You can’t have it both ways
Class war is war.
The US has literally bombed its citizens on 2 occasions because of class resistance. The military has literally taken up arms against the citizens it swore to protect over class differences. We describe violent clashes between workers and the bourgeoisie as “battles.”
Just because we’ve experienced a period of unprecedented peace doesn’t mean class conflict is over–it will not be over until class is abolished.
Also, revolutions, civil war, and war in general are most often illegal.
I mean this is just another form of certain people taking advantage of other which is as old as war
It’s not necessarily a contradiction. Lots of people now trust a “fellow man” to make a judgement on who deserves death more than the state.
So they aren’t against killing “evil” people, they just don’t agree with the state’s definition of “evil”, and deny its right to decide that.Basically, it’s the premise of Batman: When the state has failed to deliver justice, the people turn to vigilante justice.
Vigilante justice is so cool right up to the point that it is used against the people that you admire. And that is the contradiction.
There is actually no contradiction. I’m pretty sure everyone would be on board with those CEOs going to prison for life instead of them being killed.
The difference is that a convicted murderer is being punished. Healthcare CEOs are instead rewarded with a life of luxury for killing people. The law does not punish them for their transgressions. A citizen can not imprison the CEO for life. What they can do is shoot em.
So what many people are saying is that “rather a bad person gets punished than rewarded”. And if the only realistic punishment possible is killing them, because it’s fast and easy to do, then that’s deemed as acceptable even though killing is bad. Being rewarded for being evil is worse.
A CEO doesn’t kill anyone.
And they certainly don’t ever go on the lolita express.
The state has convicted and executed innocent people. The average criminal subject to capital punishment has killed an order (or several) of magnitudes fewer people than the health insurance industry.
As a country we seem to weigh more heavily acts of individual violence than those of systemic violence or violence borne of policy even when the latter 2 have far more impactful and wide spread negative results. It’s completely logical to draw a distinction between the 2 circumstances.
I’m not saying all vigilante justice is good, and I wouldn’t necessarily be against the state holding to account executives who have produced systems and policies that result in the harm or death of the state’s citizens, but in the current system justice is rare and in this act millions of people received justice.
and I wouldn’t necessarily be against the state holding to account executives who have produced systems and policies that result in the harm or death of the state’s citizens
Right, except if everything went exactly correctly as per the current justice system, the company would be found at fault, fined an absurd amount of money and closed. The wealthy executives who made the decisions that actually resulted in country-wide deaths would get sizable severance packages, take a short vacation, and 6 months to a year later open up the same business under a new name that imposes the same policies. It’ll be right back to throwing poors into a furnace to fuel their lamborgini’s until the next slap on the wrist.
We have no system to hold people accountable for their decisions as part of a company. We blame the company and then trust the company to police their staff accordingly. I’d love a widespread rework of the justice system to actually target the people responsibly for a companies actions, but we won’t get one, so instead, someone has been shot.
I don’t understand why people think in these terms, “If you approve of violence being done by your side, you must also approve of violence done against your side.” I’m not taking a principled stand in favor of violence for violence’s sake. I support that which hurts the enemy and oppose that which hurts friendlies.
Stealing from the rich? Good. Stealing from the poor? Bad. Killing exploiters? Good. Killing the exploited? Bad. There’s no contradiction here because my stance is based on self-interest and the interest of my class, not on any sort of categorical moral claim about some particular form of action.
First shots in defense of the working class have been fired in the class war and most of us are surprised it took this long.
As someone who’s father was killed by health insurance companies, the assassination of the UHC CEO brings out some really passionate bloodthirsty emotions in me. And I’m just one person….
The assassin is my hero. Too bad if it hurts your sensibilities. Fuck him, fuck his family, no sympathy. I hope there are many copycats, there are many deserving targets.
Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent revolution inevitable. They have it coming.
Sorry to hear about your father. There’s maybe nothing more horrific in Western society than the way we fund the lavish lifestyles of mass murderers like Brian Thompson.
And I have pearl clutchers whining about how my support for violence is wrong.
It’s self defense. The justice system doesn’t work against the rich so vigilantism it is.
It is wrong but I understand how you feel and I may feel the same if I was in your situation
No, it’s not wrong. They’re committing social murder and living lavish lives off it no less. Fuck bootlickers defending them with iTs WrOnG so is denying and delaying healthcare you fucks.
Denying and delaying health care is wrong. And while I think that murder shouldn’t be a desired solution to the problem as it is also wrong, at this point we have to accept that we’ve reached systematic self-defense.
Something needs to change, and there are currently no motivating factors encouraging those with the power to make change. I don’t want the answer to be violence, but, genuinely, what other options do we have at this point? The courts, the Democratic process, the police and the economy all work together to protect the massive wealth of the few, and we live in a world run by that wealth. I don’t want to hurt anyone, but more than that, I don’t want anyone to be hurt. When the few in power choose to hurt the many without, tolerance for the gaps in power, wealth, and quality of life give way.
Yeah, in summary, no one wants violence but we’ve been on the receiving end of it for decades and we’ve grown impatient with doing things the right way in terms of fighting back. It’s not like we haven’t tried every other way of doing things short of a mass general strike. And the people are too desperate and divided for such a coordinated action. So violence it is. I can’t believe it took this long.
deleted by creator
Fair I’m not really on any other forums anymore and I haven’t heard anything about this CEO death until just now
Fascinating. Are you in the US?
I could not have avoided knowing about it. Even if I were to stay off the internet completely, it has been a major conversation topic in real life with friends and family. My work has BCBS health insurance coverage so when they were dropping coverage for anesthesia, all casual conversations at work with colleagues were about it too. I couldn’t have avoided it if I actively tried.
I’m not in the US no, so far nobody has mentioned it in conversation
how people celebrated Bin Laden’s death
Ouch, some deep introspection is required if you get to a point in life where you, being an insurance CEO and being killed lead to the same kind of mob reactions as Bin Laden’s death.
To be honest, the UHC CEO was probably responsible for more loss of life than Al-Qaeda was.
Also this guy did it without undermining the global vaccine movement. Thanks Obama!
bin laden didn’t kill nearly as many americans as united health has
I think most people are more like saying “LOL” at what happened rather than “Lets kill [insert person name here]”.
I’ve definitely seen quite a few memes that were like “Here are the names and faces of a few other health insurance CEOs. No particular reason ;)”. But yeah it’s probably not most.
I thought that was more noting that the companies were trying to quietly remove those pages and experiencing the Streisand effect in relation to that
I’ve seen both. Example of what I mean
Count me in the second category. I’ve got a mental list of people I’d love to see offed in similar fashion. I’d do it myself but I have to care for my mother.
I can understand you emotions, even if I can’t directly relate (living in a country with universal healthcare). But I do think it’s a slippery slope. Those kind of “kill the oppressors” movements may hit the “right people” at first, but also have a tendency of going wildly out of control. (Khmer Rouge etc)
Those oppressors would just as easily turn around and kill you while profiting off it, why give them a pass?
Yeah, don’t care. You have no idea what it’s like to live here and how many people are ready to take matters into their own hands. Our government and justice system are a sham. We’ve had decades to do things the right way and we’ve been blocked from all matters of doing things peacefully. Violence it is.
These people killed my father and rendered my mother and I homeless for a short stint. I’ve had a lifetime of trauma dealing with these ghouls. I’d kill them myself if I didn’t have a responsibility to take care of my mom. I’ve wanted to do what the assassin did for the last 13 years. You let these companies deny your family healthcare and watch your loved ones rot and see if you want to take the high road. I and millions more are out for blood.
This was the first shot of many to come. Fuck the elite.
Just be careful you don’t get in the crossfire yourself once the people’s bloodlust takes over and who the elite is shifts. In some cases, wearing glasses was enough.
I’m already visibly queer and have been physically assaulted most of my childhood for it and threatened as an adult too. I don’t give a shit anymore.
Always funny when people are like “yeah but what if you become the target next” as if you haven’t been the target already of not only individuals but also an entire system. Like, that’s why we wanna dismantle it lol
…
Did you really blame a movement that basically existed for twenty years after relevance through US (and Chinese, interestingly enough) machinations and support, and was actually ousted by the communist Vietnamese, on a ‘kill the oppressors’ view?
Jesus, capitalists will say and do everything to blame the consequences of their actions on everyone else.
IMO. You have no clue what you’re talking about. You’re just parroting any anti-capitalist rhetoric and feeling superior about it. This is based on the fact that you enjoy calling and insinuating people are stupid
Who supported the Khmer Rouge?
Who ended up fighting and ending the genocide?
Who denied a genocide happened until the 80’s, and continued funding the Khmer Rouge until the late 90’s?
These are all simple questions with simple, factual answers. You just don’t like the picture the answers paint, and want to justify the intentional outcome of Kissinger’s designs and blame the outcome on the victims.
It sickens me to see people like the person I was replying to and yourself try and blame the people who were genocided for their genocide and to blame it on a economic ideology that had very little to do with the outcome.
Haha. You’re the one who mentioned said economic ideology. You are just stirring yourself up for the sake of being stirred up. So now I think you just see enemies wherever you go, and really, that is your personal problem.
And if you’re feeling sickened, try some pepto
Real. I don’t think the average American can correctly identify the oligarch culprits in most cases, this is the exception.
Yeah, I mean, look what happened in the late 1700’s. A bunch of people in the new world did a kind of “kill the oppressors” movement, and then they had to start a whole new country with a new set of ideas - what a pain. Then people in France caught wind of it and decided to start the movement there, too! It was a whole mess for the bourgeoise of the time.
I mean those people in the new world also did a bit of genocide of the native people as a side project and the movement in France included a regime of terror where like 30000 people, including peasants and revolutionaries, were murdered by other revolutionaries. It was hardly just the burgeoisie that suffered. But sure, desperate times may call for desperate measures. It’s not something I’d particularly want to live through though and there’s no guarantee that what comes after will be better.
Correct. Those people, who were doing all that anyway. I’m not saying they were good people, but their revolution had nothing to do with the indigenous genocide. I do know that a lot of people were hurt or killed from “being too apologetic to British forces.” I don’t personally know enough about the French revolution to know about the amount of innocent casualties, but 30,000 doesn’t surprise me.
Things are bad over here, and they’re only getting worse. If I end up being one of the people killed during the - at this point - inevitable uprising, whether from fighting or from being mistaken as being too friendly with the corrupt elite, at least I could be happy that there would be a light at the end of the tunnel for those who do survive.
Doubt it, but at least your priorities are on track
Don’t doubt it. I have skin in the game, it’s time these CEOs feel our wrath. They left my father to die a horrible death. I want revenge. There’s millions of me.
Agreed, but to say you will murder and actually murdering are two separate things
After my mother is no longer on this earth, don’t doubt me. I’ve had years of rage pent up in me over this. It’s justified. I’d only take out someone like the UHC CEO.
Don’t say that shit here. It’s called the FEDiverse because it’s full of feds.
deleted by creator
Hopefully!
Yeah it’s awesome, need more of it
Can you think of anything that happened in the past month or so, perhaps involving US politics, that might have a tendency to radicalize people?
Lemmy started as tankie safe-haven, and those memes are all over, not just on lemmy.
So I’d say, no.There is definitely a trend towards calling for death and violence against billionaires and other powerful figures that I’ve observed over a while.
Is Lemmy getting more bootlicker lately?
god willing
can’t workout if you’re genuine, or in mock agreement
Entirely genuine; the less people beholden to the settler empire and its fundamentally-toxic philosophies regarding both domestic governance and global interaction, the better; however it’s gotta happen.
Dersimde doğan güneş
I say it’s getting less radical when 20 years ago a country got invaded, a million killed, based on nothing but lies and no one bat an eye on any forum.
Yes, but, see everyone else’s statements.
Also, lemmy.ml is widely seen as a very radical instance. The polarization and downvoting for contrary opinions is far worse around here.
