Unless I’m misreading it which is possible it’s awfully late, he said he processed 60,000 rows didn’t find what he was looking for but his hard drive overheated on the full pass.
Discs don’t overheat because there was load. Even if he f***** up and didn’t index the data correctly (I assume it’s a relational database since he’s talking about rows) The disc isn’t just going to overheat because the job is big. It’s going to be lack of air flow or lack of heatsink.
I guarantee you he was running on an external NVMe, and one of those little shitty-ass Chinese enclosures. Or maybe one of those self immolating SanDisk enclosures. Hell, maybe he’s on a desktop and he slept a raw NVMe on his motherboard without a heatsink
There are times when you want a brilliant college student on your team, But you need seasoned professionals to help them through the things they’ve never seen before and never done before.
There are times when you want a brilliant college student on your team, But you need seasoned professionals to help them through the things they’ve never seen before and never done before.
Honestly, any sweet, white-haired old lady who keeps pictures of her dogs and grandkids on her desk who’s been doing data entry for 15 years could do circles around these clowns.
But she might also have the wisdom and perception to know we’re not supposed to be doing this “work” at all, which is why he recruits naive teenagers and college kids who are still emotionally immature to think that this is going to be their “destiny” or their opportunity to get into the big leagues of business.
I keep hearing things about these hires he has, I don’t think they’re naive, At least not as such. They seem to be more power hungry trust fund babies.
But yeah, people with a few years in them would be a moral liability in that line of work.
Yeah if you read more of these guys tweets they are clearly in politics. One message tried to claim trump loves kids (to be clear: in the abstract sense, not in the he definitely fucked kids on an island with Epstein sense). Then they tried to twist the words to say “why don’t you love kids”. It was clumsy like you’d expect from someone who is practically a teenager, but the core is an attempt to follow the usual right wing playbook.
Can’t be a relational database, Musk said the government doesn’t use SQL.
Lol he also said cybertrucks don’t suck ;)
He said many things.
Please remember that he is a genius. Only geniuses say a lot of things.
I rest my case.
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grep would eat 60k lines without a problem too.
yes but also why say 60K when you could have literally said anything? I mean surely the fact that he thinks 60K rows a big number is already explaining alot lol.
It’s bait.
They probably have an explanation tweet at the ready to make more sense of it. They just want enough 'hurr durr these idiot" comments before they reverse Uno card this with more context.
Based on all that has been going on, I feel like they don’t really have the capacity to think more than one step ahead. They do sth stupid and then they usually follow up with “lol joke” or “lol you can’t understand”
“You don’t know what you’re talking about 💩💩💩”
Wait, seriously?
I don’t get how people don’t see this stuff. Yea the average trumpet isn’t out there planning Jack shit. But there are think tanks that are. Remember anti-smoking campaigns. Anti climate change campaign. The precision to purchase advertising into key areas and specific demographics that would spread a message. This is ancient knowledge with modern technology.
Imagine a room full of former Wall Street, quants, established experts from fields like behavioral science and psychology. All with the singular goal to decide where to dedicate a dragons horde of wealth to maximize effect in a world where we all have anonymous pipes directly into our eyes and ears. We never stood a chance. There’s no rich socialist funding think tanks. There’s no counter. We can laugh at the yokel all we want. But the yokel is being puppeteered by some scary fuckers with intention to seize power with the new shifting Zeitgeist. Soldiers don’t need to think. But their generals are. The left are like guerilla fighters going up against an imperial army full of Patons and Eisenhower’s.
Cambridge analytical, heritage foundation, international democracy Union. We’re fucked until we actually recognize why we’re fucked
Somehow I feel over clicking without understanding of the consequences sounds like something a techbro would do
music theaters also have rows, and they run on sql so logic checks out.
Wow.
I’ve been processing a couple of billion rows of data on my machine, the fans didn’t even come on. WTF are they teaching “experts” these days, or has Elmo only hired people who claim that they can “wrangle data” and say “yes” ?
Even if querying data was processing-heavy and even if somehow the ‘hard drive’ got warm during this, then there still would need to be a hardware defect in order for the drive to overheat.
Yes, but this may be a symptom of an issue I’ve been seeing with younger programmers; they’ve siloed themselves so specifically into whatever programming they “specialize” in, that they become absolutely useless at dealing with absolutely anything else related to their job. And exasperating this issue is the fact that they’ve grown up with systems that “just work”. Windows, iOS, and android are all at the point where fucking around with hardware issues is very uncommon for the average person.
Asking this guy to solve a hardware problem is like asking hime to tune a carburetor. He likely has not the slightest clue how to start.
That’s the price of specialization. Don’t ask a software engineer to troubleshoot hardware. Don’t ask a backend dev to write a frontend. Don’t ask a proctologist to look at your cough.
You simply cannot be proficient at every sub-sub-specialty. That’s why we collaborate and hand the ‘my computer gets hot’ problems to the hardware people. The alternative would be only moderately useful generalist.
I’m not asking everyone to be able to become a hardware specialist, but if you can’t even figure out “my computer gets hot” I’m not going to be able to trust anything you do. Identifying a heat issue does not take a rocket surgeon.
In my experience, a lot of software dev degree paths basically don’t even have relevant classes on hardware at all. Classes on hardware are all in IT Helpdesk and Network Admin degree paths whereas the software dev students are dumped straight into Visual Studio right off the bat with no relevant understanding of the underlying hardware or OS.
My experience does not reflect yours. Computer Architecture, Discrete Math (logic gate math), and Operating System Concepts were all required classes in my CS degree from just a few years ago.
Honestly that’s good to hear. I’ve run into some devs who are completely mystified on how to connect to a remote database and couldn’t tell a socket from sandwich.
In my degree, we had to write kernel mods and device drivers
Can I have my socket with rye. I like rye.
My CS degree had a hardware/IT support class, but A) it was entirely simulation based. We never touched any actual hardware. We “built” PC’s or identified physical issues in 3d sim software, set up RAID arrays in software, etc. B) it was super hand holdy and you only ever go over a problem once, so nothing on the class has stuck. I know much more from having built, troubleshot and maintained my own computers and network than I ever learned from that class, then learned more by doing in an actual IT support position before becoming an engineer.
I mean to be fair the sheer amount of material most university engineering programs require these days makes spending significant time on specific problems almost impossible. They try to shove so much theory into your head they lose track of practical implementation. Basically everyone I went to school with complained about the lack of practical application relative to theory, and I studied mechanical engineering which is theoretically and literally chiefly concerned with hardware.
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You don’t teach a farmer how an internal combustion engine works. Computers are tools to software engineers. What they need to know is how to operate them, not how to maintain them.
I’m not sure how well that analogy holds up. Farmers are usually pretty well versed in mechanical systems. To the point that now that John Deere has been screwing them over on right to repair that some farmers are even becoming versed in computer programming so they can flash the firmware on their tractors.
Farmers can build a two stroke from parts.
No, but if a farmer’s tractor is overheating (as in the gard drive conparison), I’m sure they could diagnose it.
I never said that it was impossible for a farmer to learn things outside their immediate field. Just like computer programmers often have knowledge of hardware and the general technology stack.
My point, to make it explicit to a few of the illiterates who’ve replied to my comment so far, is that it is not necessary to teach a web developer how a goddamn CPU works. They can gain nothing from that knowledge because there are at least 3 levels of abstraction between JavaScript and assembly.
Operating your tools and being able to maintain and repair your tools are the unequivocally essential skills for everyone in every single industry.
If you can’t, you are not a professional.
The concepts of machine logic, registers/lookups/etc are essential for every programmer. If you don’t have a clear idea about how the simplest CPU functions, you don’t have any basis of understanding the abstractions in front of you, scripting in JS. Not a professional.
And my point is that the example you used does not make the point you are trying to make, but rather the opposite. I get what you’re saying, it just doesn’t apply to farmers and mechanics.
no but a web dev should have some knowledge basis on what the ever living fuck their AIDs code fuelled by nothing but the cheapest source of caffeine and brain damage they have even does.
This is the entire reason why half of the internet is just broken, stupid developers who don’t know how anything works, but know how to code, making dogshit implementations of anything and everything they can get their hands on.
It doesn’t matter that the learning is segmented, you should STILL be learning about computer hardware and it’s architectural choices, it’s literally the reason why programming languages work the way that they do.
No, not really. Programming requires understanding of the underlying hardware, at least to a certain extent. Otherwise performance issues will look like dark magic and optimizing anything would be impossible.
Where do you start debugging if something goes wrong with the software and your information level is this low/ do you look at network stats? CPU utilization, paging/swapping? Is the hard disk bandwidth the bottleneck? Without at least some passable understanding of a computer architecture people like this just throw up their hands, or throw whatever tricks they know at the wall and see what sticks.
A lot of farmers are learning how they work cause the companies that sell them the equipment keep fucking them over. I would argue that farmers nowadays needs to know how that works along with basic programming to get past the anti-consumer bullshit companies put in to make it nigh impossible to fix things yourself.
doesnt matter if you know how to program, john deere is just going to put some autistic encryption and ID locking on their shit, what needs to happen is for john deere to stop fucking doing this.
Most tractors are walking computers anyway, farmers are genuinely the most multi talented people you will ever meet in your life.
Horseshit. Computers aren’t tools for a software engineer. Computers are tools to an administrator, an accountant. Computers are the sandbox you are building castles in as a software engineer. If you don’t understand the system upon which you build, its abilities and features, its limitations, it’s dependencies, you are going to make some stupid mistakes.
You need to understand discrete mathematics as a consequence of computer computation. You need to understand parallel processing and threading for muli-core processors. You need to understand networking, package management, security vulnerabilities, etc. from different architectures and protocols. And it ALWAYS helps to understand the very basics of a computer’s functioning, from hardware, CPU architecture, machine code, assembly/low level programming, memory management, etc.
print('Hello, World!) is day one shit for a reason. Programming language and logic is the basics. The real expertise comes from your 3rd and 4th year materials. Databases, architecture, theory of computation, discrete mathematics, networking, operating systems, compilers, etc.
computers are a tool to anybody who uses them?
If you’re using a tool, it goes without saying, you should probably have at the very least, a cursory understanding of it’s function. Lest you injure yourself gravely.
What the fuck
How is he going to fix his tractor? Wait days for John Deere to send somebody? Let the crop rot on the vine?
CS departments were doing poorly, but now they’re putting out farmers? No wonder all these new graduates can’t find a job.
Ooh wait 'til Musk realises he can improve US agricultural efficiency.
I mean every programmer says they intend to quit and pick up farming. Might as well give them the knowledge to be successful at their late career while they’re at it
You’ve never met a farmer in your life.
It is good for the programmer to know how the computer operates, as well.
Just keep trying to justify your own lack of competency I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the only reason farmers are afloat financially is BECAUSE they can rebuild an engine if needed.
Just look at the john deere right to repair shit. It’s literally a huge problem.
If it was an nvme ssd i could almost believe it. Some come with totally underspecced heatsinks
has Elmo only hired people who claim that they can “wrangle data” and say “yes” ?
There’s two issues going on:
- Elmo’s sociopathic approach to laying people off is public knowledge, and top experts have the luxury of not even applying for his jobs.
- Elmo’s ability to judge engineering talent has likely been wildly exaggerated thanks to how he has successfully bought organizations full of talented people, in the past.
I’ve read a story on the forbidden website where a “database” was a single table with a single column holding a single row that contained the actual data as a CSV blob. I’m willing to bet the muskies are not beyond such acts of genius.
It’s terrifying that this is plausible.
We call it New Redis!
He hired a bunch of 19-25 year old. Not experts
Hey! Thats offensive to 19-25 year olds, there are many who just finished college/university and are more than aware.
They’re just role playing like in movies, with no idea of the consequences.
How on earth is it offensive to say they’re “not experts”? They’re not prodigies with PhDs. These specific young men are just technical enough and ideologically aligned.
Except they’re not, as you will know their tweet would be false after your first year of any technical (IT oriented) education.
First year? That shit is like A+ cert level knowledge or below, and A+ is damn near worthless. They would know that in the first few hours of a study guide
I was being generous when you consider the people in school who somehow pass, even when they don’t know a thing 🥲
Technical enough to be hired, is all I meant. 🙄
Apologies, if I came over as hostile. I did not get your meaning through text.
Even then, no. These were all obviously nepotism hires who would not have otherwise qualified.
Meh, some of them won some hackathons and scholarships, it’s pretty clear they’re otherwise at least somewhat bright but they don’t have any relevant domain knowledge.
In other words, the type of person most likely to be prone to hubris and catastrophic failures.
Your original comment was ambiguous as to if being an “expert” and “being 19-25” are mutually exclusive.
lol a 19-21 yo isnt going to have a degree lol,
If they went into uni straight out of high school, they could. A lot of Bachelor holders would be around that age, since they start at 18.
Bunch of 1337 hax0rs script kiddies who don’t understand anything but they suck elon’s balls or something idk.
These are the type of people that have deleted the French language from their GNU/Linux system.
There is nothing wrong with being 19-25. There’s something wrong with being wholly incompetent.
There’s not really anything wrong with being incompetent, so long as you have the humility to admit it and learn from people who know better, and try not to cause harm. That’s not Musk’s minions though.
I think it’s important to differentiate incompetence from ignorance. Ignorance is not knowing. Incompetence is not being able to fulfill the requirements for your assigned task. If you cannot fulfill the requirements for your given task, then you should not be given said task.
You have to understand that the average Trump voter probably knows everything they know about computers from watching the ‘wacky-zaney hacker with personality issues/quirks’ “hack” into things by tippity tapping their fingies on a keyboard in your average copaganda performance.
This is something those types of people will believe.
You’re on the mark. I’m like Help Desk Level 2, I wouldnt even consider myself an actual wizard. The average person in my office thinks I’m Gandalf. Its scary how much these people dont know. And each one of them is out there on the internet.
60k rows is generally very usable with even wide tables in row formats.
I’ve had pandas work with 1M plus rows with 100 columns in memory just fine.
After 1M rows move on to something better like Dask, polars, spark, or literally any DB.
The first thing I’d do with whatever data they’re running into issues with is rewrite it as partitioned and sorted parquet.
My go-to tool of late is
duckdb, comes with binaries for most platforms, works out of the box, loads any number of database formats and is FAST.
Yes, his Boy Harem.
60k isn’t that much, I frequently run scripts against multiple hundreds of thousands at work. Wtf is he doing? Did he duplicate the government database onto his 2015 MacBook Air?
60k is laughably, embarrassingly small. It’s still sqlite-sized.
Sqlite can easily handle millions of rows. Don’t sell it short
How about a 6.4TB sqlite database?
Should be enough to hold 60k rows
I’m not
I have an sqlite db that is a few GB in size, game saves using the format. Sadly almost all blob data, would love to play with it if it was a bit more readable
i mean its even excel sized depending on how many columns. This is seriously sad and alarming
Hey now that’s real close to the 65,535 16-bit limit (from 20 years ago)
Holy shit if this ids lm issue that’s too funny
60k is single json file
A TI-86 can query 60k rows without breaking a sweat.
If his hard drive overheated from that, he is doing something very wrong, very unhygienic, or both.
There must be more join statements than column names
He probably mining crypto on top of running his SQL queries.
What? You don’t run your hard drives in the oven while baking brownies? It makes them zesty.
Seriously - I can parse multiple tables of 5+ million row each… in EXCEL… on a 10 year old desktop and not have the fan even speed up. Even the legacy Access database I work with handles multiple million+ row tables better than that.
Sounds like the kid was running his AI hamsters too hard and they died of exhaustion.
Excel have a limit of 2^20 rows, something more that 1M. Curious what version of excel are you using for that.
You’re correct - the standard tabs can only hold roughly 1.2 million rows.
The way to get around that limitation is to use the Data Model within Power Pivot:
It can accept all of the data connections a standard Power Query can (ODBC, Sharepoint, Access, etc):
You build the connection in Power Pivot to your big tables and it will pull in a preview. If needed, you can build relationship between tables with the Relationship Manager. You can also use DAX to build formulas just like in a regular Excel tab (very similar to Visual Basic). You can then run Pivot Tables and charts against the Data Model to pull out the subsets of data you want to look at.
The load times are pretty decent - usually it takes 2-3 minutes to pull a table of 4 million rows from an SQL database over ODBC, but your results may vary depending on datasource. It can get memory intensive, so I recommend a machine with a decent amount of RAM if you’re going to build anything for professional use.
The nice thing about building it out this way (as opposed to using independent Power Queries to bring out your data subsets) is that it’s a one-button refresh, with most of the logic and formulas hidden back within the Data Model, so it’s a nice way to build reports for end-users that’s harder for them to fuck up by deleting a formula or hiding a column.
Oh yes, I remember using power query for a few months once I started working with bigger databases, but I saw that moving to Python would be better carrer wise and never came back to excel to do actual work (but at the end everything get exported to excel)
I’ve run searches over 60k lines of raw JSON on a 2015 MacBook air without any problems.
Don’t know what Elmos minions are doing, but I’ve written code at least equally unefficient. It was quite a few years ago (the code was in written in perl) and I at least want to think that I’m better now (but I’m not paid to code anymore). The task was to pull in data from a CSV (or something like that, as I mentioned, it’s been a while) and it needed conversion to XML (or something similar).
The idea behind my code was that you could just configure which fields you want from arbitary source data and on where to place them on the whatever supported destination format. I still think that the basic idea behind that project is pretty neat, just throw in whatever you happen to have and have something completely else out of the other end. And it worked as it should. It was just stupidly hungry for memory. 20k entries would eat up several gigabytes of memory from a workstation (and back then it was premium to have even 16G around) and it was also freaking slow to run (like 0.2 - 0.5 seconds per entry).
But even then I didn’t need to tweet that my hard drive is overheating. I well understood that my code is just bad and I even improved it a bit here and there, but it was still so very slow and used ridiculous amounts of RAM. The project was pretty neat and when you had few hundred items to process at a time it was even pretty good, there was companies who relied on that code and paid for support. It just totally broke down with even a slightly bigger datasets.
But, as I already mentioned, my hard drive didn’t overheat on that load.
My fucking events table of my synapse DB in postgres is nearly ten times as large, and I ported that from sqlite no long ago, in a matter of minutes. All of the data is on a 2*3 cluster of old 256GB SSDs, equaling about 1.5TB with Raid 0. That’s neither really fast, nor cool. But stable.
No, its an external drive, appearently.
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I mean if we were to sort of steelman this thing, there sure can be database relations and queries that hit only 60k rows but are still hteavy as fuck.
I’d do that if I was given so much stupid access
60k of rows is nothing. Fuck, where do you find these “geniuses”?
Tbf we don’t know how many columns there are /s
The IRS just switched columns and rows. So there’s 60k rows and 330 million columns /s
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There’s only one reason he wants kids and not experienced adults.
He’s attracted to them?
I do data analysis for a living, I reach out to tech and complain if I can’t open a file with a million+ lines.
From the same group that doesn’t understand joins and thinks nobody uses SQL this is hardly surprising .
Probably got an LLM running locally and asking it to get data which is then running 10 level deep sub queries to achieve what 2 inner joins would in a fraction of the time.
You’re giving this person a lot of credit. It’s probably all in the same table and this idiot is probably doing something like a for-loop over an integer range (the length of the table) where it pulls the entire table down every iteration of the loop, dumps it to a local file, and then uses plain text search or some really bad regex’s to find the data they’re looking for.
Considering that is nearly exactly some of the answers I’ve received during the technical part of interviews for jr data eng, you’re probably not far off.
Shit I’ve seen solutions done up that look like that, fighting the optimiser every step (amongst other things)
I think you’re still giving them too much credit with the for loop and regex and everything. I’m thinking they exported something to Excel, got 60k rows, then tried to add a lookup formula to them. Since you know, they don’t use SQL. I’ve done ridiculous things like that in Excel, and it can get so busy that it slows down your whole computer, which I can imagine someone could interpret as their “hard drive overheating”.
I have to admit I still have some legacy code that does that.
Then I found pandas. Life changed for the better.
Now I have lots if old code that I’ll update, “one day”.
However, even my old code, terrible as it is, does not overheat anything, and can process massively larger sets of data than 60,000 rows without any issue except poor efficiency.
They don’t understand joins? How…
I’ve used local hard drives from like 1992 and I have never ever gotten them to overheat.
I bet a million bucks the harddrive didnt “overheat”.
Its just someone who doesnt know anything about computer hardware.
Its like me saying my car overheated if there is smoke coming out of it. I know nothing about cars.
I’ve found a lot of people call the computer itself the “hard drive”.
Yeah… That’s what I think the idiot is likely doing.Anyone doing so has no fucking business touching code.Just read that the fuckstick is copying government data onto an external.
I didn’t know hard drive overheating was a thing. Should I be worried that my 5 year old hard drive is about to overheat. I mean is this actually a floppy disk or something?
When an HDD works continuously it can heat up to above 60 °C if proper air circulation is not allowed, which can cause a very premature failure. In fact, it should be kept under 40 °C to achieve the intended lifespan. Unfortunately, PC cases are usually not great at removing heat from the HDD by default.
As for your drive, it most likely has a temperature sensor so it can be displayed by various utilities.
I have a 12v fan running at 5v spitting air on my hdds, and that’s enough for them to go from 55°C to 29°C, lol.
I did that too, the tiny fan is pretty much silent at 5V. The HDD has so much surface area it only needs a little air circulation.
it is, in the select event that your platter bearing fails, in which case it would be very, very obvious.
So you’ve had this happen?
no. but generally spinning things that spin at several thousands of RPM that are spinning on a bearing, that no longer have a bearing usually sort of uh, tend to be VERY noisy.
Ok, but do you know anyone this has happened to? I don’t and I have some pretty old drives I still use. I tend to just buy more. Also most drives these days are solid state aren’t they? This just feels like a low probability event to me. Overheating RAM or the CPU or GPU, sure, but hard drive?
not personally, i may have seen a video or two of it happening, but it’s hard to tell whether the head is dragging against the platter, or it’s the bearing, either one of those makes horrendous noise.
If you’re worried about it happening on a drive you own, you should copy that data somewhere else as a backup, ideally sooner rather than later. If you’re curious about the health of the drive you do stuff like SMART tests as well.
Yeah, most drives are solid state now, unless you’re buying hdds for archival purposes, still cheaper and denser in most cases. It’s a low probability failure, until the drive meets EOL, in which case it’s a mechanical wear part, either the motor or the bearing fails. One of them will fail first, probably the bearing.
The bearing failing would likely result in the HDD overheating as a result. Assuming the platter still spins, but that’s the only scenario i can think of where that would happen, unless you dump a very specific amount of continuous current into the read arm coils. That might also cause it, but it’s not likely at all.
An ssd “overheating” is more likely, but it shouldn’t cause too many issues, maybe premature degradation over long term use, and slowing of read/write speeds, or in some cases, an improvement, but other than that it should be business as normal. You would have to hit it with like a heat gun, to get a hardware failure or something like that.
I’m not actually worried about my drives. In fact that was kind of the point. I was kidding around because this excuse that the hard drive overheated sounds a little like a car running out of blinker fluid.
oh no they’re definitely stupid, that’s for sure. I’m just providing the two available scenarios in which they would be right lmao.
hard disk drives do still exist, and are useful for some stuff. mostly they’re cheaper. I think better for stuff you write to often?
SSD’s can overheat. but, again, there are usually sensors to throttle them when you’re in danger of this, and this idiot probably disabled those. because safety is for cucks i guess.
I had it happen to a random hard drive I bought, old bastard found in a bin at a local thrift store. Anyways had a big dent in it and while it started up, even booting into windows XP it cooked itself made a screeching noise and was hot to the touch. Don’t think I need to explain that the big dent was probably the source of the overheating, anyways had to use an oven mitt to relocate it to a metal bucket of water where it boiled for a minute.
So the story is plausible then?
Sure if they physically damaged the hard drive, though at that point the failure and the code were largely unrelated. Though if they were using a computer with an SSD only I would have no clue. Assuming they aren’t lying id have to look at the computer physically, perhaps even pry it open to see if there’s any noticable damage.
There’s also the possibility that they are just stupid and overheated their CPU by having too many apps open. Then they blamed their hard drive overheating because they are stupid.
it is a thing, but any competently designed computer should have things in place to prevent this.
unless you’re an arrogant dipshit and disable all the hardware safeties on your computer to make it go faster and wear harder.
As a reasonably experienced “data guy,” this seems obviously laughable, but the discussion on X is scary. This guy is a savior in the MAGA world.
We can criticize and poke fun all day, but it doesn’t matter much if our message isn’t challenging the mindset of those with other opinions.
How do we make better use of our time to impact outside opinion?
We must make better memes
I’m not even joking, the world runs on memes now. It’s fucking stupid, but we must shitpost to save ourselves
I agree some form of consistent opposition messaging is needed.
The maga world talks in consistent themes and terminology, which creates a psychological advantage. Unfortunately, it’s playground psychology, but if that’s the game being played you need to find a way to win at it.
I can’t remember the particular phrase that was used, but I heard an argument recently that we need to be more like politicians going on an interview and ensure that we’re more on message. For example, it’s fairly obvious by now that economically, the problem is wealth inequality, but I see fairly surprisingly few people discussing that.
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That’s probably who I’m remembering; I recently discovered his work.
I’ve been told violence isn’t the answer and we shouldn’t just shoot nazis and nazi enablers dead.
The way most people change their mind isn’t based on facts or figures, but emotions. Specifically, in-group belonging. For most people, and this certainly includes me and you some of the time, what our in-group believes is more compelling than an out-groups supposed facts.
They see that guy as someone in their group so they believe him. They see you as a bad outside bad bad bad liar, so nothing you say is likely to get through. (This comic is worth reading on this topic: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe )
If you want to change someone’s mind, they have to see you as in-group. Not necessarily the same group as what you’re arguing with. We all belong to many groups. American, new yorker, white guy, middle aged, yankees fan, etc etc there are many such slices. Like how you can’t get a republican to recycle by appealing to environmental concerns (because environmentalists are out-group, so fuck them), but you might be able to get them to recycle via something like “only american ingenuity can turn trash into bridges and tanks!”
This takes a lot of time and effort, and if you don’t get them to stop hanging out with the other group, you won’t make any lasting changes.
So I think you’d need a multi prong approach:
- Get them off bad media. Facebook, fox news, etc. This is reinforcing their bad beliefs. Because they see this stuff as trustworthy in-group, it goes right into the worldview.
- Get them to stop hanging out with their shitty maga-hat friends. This is the social in-group that’s reinforcing bad beliefs.
- Get them to trust you.
- Gently introduce the idea that maybe the extreme right doesn’t have their interests at heart, etc
All of which takes a lot of time and effort, and your opposite number is basically trying to do the same thing. Except they have fox news, trump, and such in their corner.
And, again, I’m told we definitely shouldn’t just shoot extreme right wingers and other nazi sympathizers dead. Nor should we burn their houses down. If we’re an emergency responder, we definitely shouldn’t let them die while thinking to ourselves “they would let so many die. without a thought, their passing deserves no mourning” or similar.
You should definitely nullify if you’re on a jury and someone allegedly did violence to a shitty ceo or red-hat, though, bu that’s getting off topic.
Wow, that was an awesome rabbit hole, thank you for the link.
If you want to change someone’s mind, they have to see you as in-group.
Maybe a less manipulative-sounding way to phrase that might be that we should remind people that we’re all in it together. The far right media and their billionaire buddies have spent the past decade and a half dividing us, and they succeeded. Idk what it would take to unite this country again, but it at least is a little comforting to have a clear problem statement.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I’m from the UK, and whilst things are less politically dire here than the US, it’s still pretty grim. Both the Conservatives and Labour seem reluctant to actually meaningfully tax the rich, even as the working class (and to a lesser extent, the middle class) are being squeezed by a cost of living crisis and general hopelessness. Parties like Reform are taking the racist “things are bad because we have too many immigrants” and I’ve recently realised that I need to stop resenting people for being taken in by that rhetoric; people are desperate and there aren’t people in the mainstream pushing for alternatives (besides Reform). These people have a lot in common with me, such as recognising that we’re being fucked but the system, but we just disagree on the solution. It’s hard, but ultimately necessary to be able to be in solidarity with people like Reform’ voters
I’ve been told violence isn’t the answer
By the very same people asking the question: What are you gonna do about it?
Where ‘it’ is your oppression.
Compelling point. I just found that arguing with „these kind of people“ (livibg in europe, so no MAGA‘s here but like-minded, conservative fundamentalists etc.) leads to nowhere. It‘s kind of like the covid-conversations. And often I heard „you can‘t make them change their minds, so just let them be“. Still, I think this behaviour leads to isolation and separates us as a people even more.
Long story short: good question. If you found the answer, let me know.
I can only speak from my very limited experience. My father is the very example of a person who has some beliefs and tries to judge whole world through those beliefs. Everyone who doesn’t share those beliefs is an enemy. If you don’t believe in extreme opinion A, you automatically have to believe in extreme opinion B which is the opposite of A. You probably know such people.
Over last years, we yelled at each other lots of times, but that lead to nowhere. What actually helped was that finding the common ground. To make him understand that just because I don’t agree with his side, it doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m shilling for the other one. Not everything is bipolar. From my father’s perspective, everyone has to be either pro-Russian or pro-American (which is funny from today’s perspective, but I guess you get my point). You point out that Russia did something bad? He will tell you “Yeah and USA did <something>! You don’t have an issue with that”. And that’s the thing. To make him understand, that I DO have an issue with that. World is not a football match where you have to take a side and fully commit to it. You don’t have to go “full in” on a topic. Your opinion can be nuanced based on the actual topic, not just dumbed down into “my side thinks that A, so I agree with A. Your side thinks that B, so you have to agree with B”.
Before that I never had much success in having a proper discussion. It always ended up in a screaming match, because he wasn’t listening to arguments. He simply knew, that I had the “other” opinion, so my opinion was automatically wrong. Now he knows, that I don’t fully agree with anyone. He now somehow understands that my opinions are based on a set of principles, not on a tribalistic “my team” vs “your team”. And by understanding that, he’s more open to actually having a discussion on a topic, not just trying to convert me from “bad side” to “good side”.
And don’t get me wrong. He still believes in what he believes in. But he’s more open to accepting that not everything “his side” says is automatically correct. And that by itself is a small victory for me.
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Doesn’t actually say that 60k overheated his drive. He says that he ran a run on 60k, and that he couldn’t do the whole database due to overheating. Two unrelated statements except that 60k is the lower bound for what he could process.
Doesn’t mean he knows what he’s doing though, as pretty huge datasets are processable on quite modest hardware if you do it right.
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I don’t want to take away from the valid point of your comment, but rocket science is almost exclusively math
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You’re not supposed to place your laptop directly in the lap of your fur suit. Always leave an air gap for ventilation, smh.
I cannot believe these people make more than me lol.
They make nothing. They’re compensated for destroying things, and considering it’s musk, they’re likely given relatively little money in return for their time.
Even if the only thing you do all day is sit on the toilet and yell at the Internet, you’re already a bigger net positive on society.
Most likely compensation is the promise of being part of privatization of whatever the fuck they’re destroying.
They’re dumb kids. They probably see Musk as some kind of god. He gave them some line like “Hey, you guys wanna save the United States?” and they jumped at the chance.
You get to be a piece of history! Whheeeeeee
As a former dumb kid this tracks
We’re going to see all of these clowns in front of a grand jury one day.
The reason he recruited a bunch of incompetent college kids is because nobody with any experience or wisdom would touch this rolling crime wave with a 10 foot pole
I would be absolutely shocked if we had anything approaching justice for what this administration is doing.
We barely got anything for that whole ass insurrection attempt.
What in the fuck is this idiot doing? I’ve process datasets far larger than that and never once have I run into a hard drive “overheat”. I mean what level of incompetence do you have to have to get a hard drive to overheat processing a measley 60K rows of data?
I’ve met people who think their desktop PC is the “hard drive” but they’re all over 60.
Maybe
Maybe
They are just making shit up and doing jack shit
I really hope so.
just a lame-ass excuse for not finding whatever evidence they were looking for.
elsewhere, some seeding was done.
now they’ll do the ‘full’ data grab and ‘find’ what they were looking for.
Yeah. Hiring inexperienced children into government isn’t fraud, by itself. But I bet it makes fraud way easier.
