What does someone have to do that means no amount of remorse or effort to fix things will get you to forgive them? I don’t mean forgive and forget to the point where they can hurt you again. If someone repeatedly steals from you, forgiveness doesn’t mean putting them in a position where they can steal again.
I’m asking this purely out of curiosity. I’m just wondering what the attitude in my corner of the internet is.
For me, it’s really just a lack of actual remorse or effort to fix things. As long as they’re willing to demonstrate they recognize what they did and will work to be better (and it’s not a recurring pattern), we’re cool.
I think generally the same but there are extreme cases like murder where a person can atone all they want but shouldn’t necessarily be granted forgiveness.
To me it kinda have to depend on what kind of murder. Accidentally killed someone in self defence or as a victim of abuse? Yeah it can be forgiven. Going out of their way to kill someone or doing something that’s dangerous that result in killing someone? That’s unforgivable.
I hereby declare all of those unpremeditated types of murder should henceforth be referred to as “oopsies”.
Murder makes it sound so intentional in my mind.
The legal term for a lethal ‘oopsie’ is manslaughter I’m pretty sure.
Ive always found it a little strange that the law and insurance companies and human society in general is hyperfocused with finding a scapegoat to blame and persecute. People die sometimes just because of shit happening outside of anyone’s control but we’ve gotta dig for someone to pin blame on. Someones parachute didn’t work right that day? Its the parachute makers or the safety inspectors or the airplane owners who are to blame and not random unavoidable small chance of statistical failure rates. Gotta sue sue sue!
I always recommend reading the whole thing, because the work is incredible, but as to the ‘oopsie’ of manslaughter, it’s nice to read some of the theory behind it: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=185 (edit, oh god, the april fools thing is horrible. I’m sorry in advance)
As for the parachute thing, most of the time the cause of the accident is the skydiver. https://www.uspa.org/searchincidentreports It also makes a lot of sense to look closely at the manufacturers/inspectors/dropzone operators, because otherwise a lot of shit could get swept under the rug as just random occurrences. As in engineering, we must examine where we can fix what went wrong. I can understand the frustration that the process often is entangled with the courtroom, but if a jury, presented with evidence and arguments by both sides, comes to the conclusion that one party was injured due to another’s actions and restitution is deserved, who the fuck are we to gainsay that? I’m aware of many times where the “random unavoidable small chance of statistical failure rates” is settled on as the cause and there isn’t a settlement paid. Even talking about removing someone’s ability to seek remedy from the courts is an action that should be looked at with no small amount of suspicion.
I can forgive mistakes and bad judgment, but if you intentionally do something that makes me lose trust and respect, it’s going to be hard to earn that back. If you lie to me, for example, I don’t see it as a one-time action - it reveals something about the kind of person you are. Saying you won’t do it again doesn’t mean much after you’ve already shown it’s something you’ve been doing up to this point.
I don’t believe in free will, so when I see someone act this way, I don’t even really blame them. I don’t see it as a conscious decision, but more as a behavior they’re helplessly repeating. And people rarely change that kind of behavior unless the motivation comes from within - not from outside pressure.
I don’t believe in free will, so when I see someone act this way, I don’t even really blame them. I don’t see it as a conscious decision, but more as a behavior they’re helplessly repeating. And people rarely change that kind of behavior unless the motivation comes from within - not from outside pressure.
That’s an interesting angle. But without free will, wouldn’t it be that they could never change the behavior unless it was already preordained?
I don’t believe people can choose to change their behavior in the way we usually think. But I do believe they can be influenced to change - by new information or experiences.
Take this example: if we suddenly discovered that tomatoes are toxic, I wouldn’t say I’m actively choosing to stop eating them. What’s really happening is that my understanding of the world has changed so much that I automatically no longer want to eat them. It’s not about freedom of choice - it’s more like being compelled by truth. I didn’t decide to change; the change happened to me because of what I learned.
I’ve forgiven way too much to people than I should ever have in the first place and I allowed them to get away with too much than they ever should.
To me, someone or something becomes unforgivable, when you’ve presented them perfect opportunities or chances to make up for their fuck up. Continual and repetitious fuck ups, really sets in stone how not-so-apologetic someone is that has made the mistakes. Because in come the excuses, in come the sob stories, in come the laundry list of reasons .etc
It becomes too much, especially if someone fucks something up for you or someone else in a colossal way. These days, if you want to be sorry for something, you don’t fucking do it again. That’s all and it depends on what it is.
Probably dishonesty. Coworker threw away thousands of dollars worth of my department’s equipment and then lied to me about it. I know she was just repeating her boss, but she knew it was a lie. I’ll hold a grudge against both of those bitches forever!
Two former friends hit on my husband - not just flirty, pretty seriously with an expectation of more. They’re both out forever!
When the same attempts to set healthy boundaries with that person are ignored repeatedly. Sure, give them a chance to try and adjust their behavior if the relationship is otherwise valuable.
But after you are sure that you have been consistent and clear for a reasonable amount of time and the boundaries still get invaded?
Bye, Felicia.
Forgiveness is always possible, although if someone hits me with DARVO, I’m going to forever filter their behavior through a check before helping them. It’s sorta amazing what we can go through and forgive after, but I guess the misnomer is that the apology is for them and not ourselves.
When criticism of the act gets enough likes on Lemmy and/or Reddit—that’s when I know what to think.
Hmmmm probably a lot of things, but first to mind is animal cruelty
What counts as animal cruelty?
Intentionally did something dangerous that you know will get people hurt with a slightest mistake. Like driving recklessly, or pushing others in a huge crowd. There’s no amount of sorry will make me believe you’re remorseful, you’re only sorry because stuff that will happen happened.
Ohh and embezzlement of public fund. Fuck off with that crocodile tear.
It’s not about “forgiveness”, it’s about whether the mistakes can be undone.
Consider you accidentally insult somebody. That can be undone by apologizing.
What if you murder somebody? That can never be undone.
An apology doesn’t undo what you said any more than it brings someone back to life.
People do occasionally forgive murderers.
Not the victims, admittedly, but their families sometimes.
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Things that betray trust are very hard for me to let go. Theft, backstabbing, lies, etc. If I can’t trust you, I can’t hang out with you.
Anything done in person with absolute disrespect and malice
The only time something would become unforgivable is if it were done with intentional malice or becomes a pattern of behavior. I’m willing to forgive quiet a bit, if the harm an action caused was not the intent. When it becomes the intent, such as physical violence or repeated trauma, that’s where I take a hard line and will not forgive. For less spectacular transgressions, repeat events are where things become unforgivable. I am willing to give grace on that more because I’m bad about not communicating to others how their actions hurt me, but if we’ve talked about how their behavior is a problem and they keep doing it? No sorry, we’re done.
The second time they do it. You get one chance to do some mild shit and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Of course, I don’t announce it but I keep tabs.
If people are truly sorry and have taken steps to make sure that what they did will never happen again, they are eligible for forgiveness of anything.
