Roses are red
Violets are blue
Oversimplified political apathy
Is what gave you Trump 2
No, Democrats and Liberals using Trump 2 as an excuse to be vocally pro-genocide and forcing people to accept pro-fascism is what caused Trump 2, since the party cannot fail only be failed by voters willing to accept fascism but not turned off by crude, ham-fisted forms of fascism. The problem, supposedly, is people that oppose Trump’s policies, rather than just needing the Trump policies being polite. It is the Democrat’s need to always adopt all of the previous Republican policies, and their only goal is being the Republicans, but polite. If Genocide and fascism is not a red line, but completely acceptable to support, as long as you can imagine another regime doing the genocide slightly worse, there is no evil you will not work for and support.
Voting is not a sign of support for everything the candidate does. It’s a choice for who you want to be in the position, and none of the above is not a possible outcome.
Choosing to not vote means you’re choosing whoever the majority of voters pick
Apathy benefits only the republicans
Democrats better not put forward candidates people are apathetic about then.
Responsibility lies with “The Democrats” (some sort of far away secret group that I can’t influence) and not with any American. If those Democrats can’t give me my perfect candidate, then I’ll just give up and let the fascists win. Also, I can’t figure out why they won’t do this–my ideal liberal candidate would appeal to the majority of Americans!
It is never the party’s job to appeal to voters. There is one designated party that is just owed support and should never have to craft another appeal besides “The Republicans can’t fill out the paperwork properly, that is why we will build the wall faster, put people in concentration camps at greater numbers, and do fascism better and more politely than the dumb, knuckle-dragging fascists”
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That was poetic as shit, man
Or maybe, we can use this to protest and vote for political change. We cannot allow lobbies to buy politicians anymore, and campaign spending must be capped.
here’s an example for you to drive home why sentiment like this is dumb and creates false equivalencies. when I was 14, I worked at a grocery store. there were two managers that I would get scheduled with. they both sucked and were awful human beings. however, one was a known child predator. which one do you think I’d rather get scheduled with?
The sentiment isn’t dumb. It’s true. The Democrats don’t give a fuck about us plebs. I voted for Harris and absolutely will vote for/choose the lesser evil as long as I’m still able. Doing so does not mean the Dems give any fucks about me.
Remember when Bernie had real momentum behind him and the Dems sabotaged him because Hillary was determined to have her run at the presidency? If the Democratic party gave a fuck about the voting public they’d have gone whole hog behind Bernie.
It the Dems cared about normies, they’d be doing more than performative filibusters that accomplish nothing. If the Democratic party cared they’d be throwing up every fucking roadblock they could to actually try and stop that motherfucker Trump and his fucking cronies.
Are the Dems a better option than the Republicans? Yes. Do the Dems care about us? No. They’re just the less shitty choice.
Neither is also an option. You don’t need to put up with either manager.
To map your analogy to the US 2 party system the one who isn’t a known child predator is also a child predator and works to keeps the other one in power. They both work for the same super predator.
Even with Biden exiting late, that was a winnable election and the dems botched it by trying to fit as much evil as they thought they could get away with into the platform-- so they could cash the most checks from AIPAC.
If Harris had just said two weeks before the general that she thought what was going on was genocide, she’d be president right now and the minimum of campaign funding would have been lost. Sure the far right would never donate to the dems again, but when you look at what their donations cost us all, why would anyone take that money anyway?
Bringing their priorities into the party was always a massive mistake by DNC leadership.
And the dems like yourself learned nothing from the loss and keep preaching to others to accept lesser evils. When it comes to crimes against humanity I think you’ll find for the dems that enough of their base says “never again – for any ethnicity” that they should not even try this again unless they absolutely want to lose. Theres barely enough base to even try to win again in any case. We’re past any sort of ‘optimizing for highest $$’ strategizing and just fighting for the party to even exist at all anymore. So maybe take your lesser evil metaphor and fold it till its all sharp corners and do the needful.
funniest comment section of all time. my country truly will never change for the better.
I, John Brown, am now quite certain, that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away, but with blood.
He did know that already in 1859
This “both sides” is bullshit when you are getting a train run on you by the Republicans…
And the leader of the Democrats describes his job as “keeping the left pro Israel”.
I’m an Independent. But there’s no “leader” of the Democrats, it’s a big-tent party. Chuck is head of the group of Democratic senators, but he doesn’t dictate things outside of Senate business and we don’t blindly all follow everything he says. That’s the difference between electing public servants and people in a cult.
EDIT: Downvote all you want, this is a simple fact. You’re allowed to just want to be mad! But I don’t know why people click the “down” button just because they don’t like what was said… Has anyone used actual logic and facts to disprove me? Of course not…
The only time Democrats won’t fall in line is when they have to vote for Republican budget bills.
So brave speaking truth on a post clearly meant to attract morons.
Correct, but still not even close to the same thing. More of this “balanced” stuff.
Anywho on the plus side, he’s getting wrecked in the polls vs AOC who’s looking to take his place though.
Genocide apologist
Just fuck off already
No u
After the train run on you by democrats…
I can’t deal with US politics right now and this thread.
I’m fucking Canadian and people upvoting this both sides nonsense is getting my blood boiling.
I thought this enlightened centrist shit was over with but people are bringing it up like they’re some next-level IQ genius. When in reality they’re trying their to push people to the right (whether they understand it or not).
When is your country going to return the land they stole to its indigenous peoples? When is the US democratic party going to stop supporting the genocide of Palestine?
If its people not voting for the US democratic party, rather than either of the above issues that “gets your blood boiling”, you might need to re-evaluate which side of the white supremacist line you’re on.
I’m fucking Canadian
So you probably dont even understand the full context of what you’re talking about.
Arent there other countries political websites you can go bother people on? Try Australia, your fellow commonwealth country (sorry australians). Theres plenty of other places to be a touriust with strong opinions about other peoples governments.
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ICE and deportations grew massively during Obama’s presidency.
By the numbers: Under the Obama administration, total ICE deportations were above 385,000 each year in fiscal years 2009-2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012. The numbers dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016.
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blueMAGA fascists don’t think non-Americans are human
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Least incoherent fascist
When it involves citizens, it’s a travesty. When, it’s literally everyone else (the overwhelming fucking majority affected by ICE deportations), it’s acceptable collateral, bonus brownie points when it’s done by the Blue team.
Get a grip.
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Did you already forget that it was you that dismissed the deportation statistics posted above during one of Team Blue’s occupation with “ok but this time it’s Team Red and it involves our citizens! This is worse”? So when the Blues do it without citizens, somehow that’s a “fine price to pay”? Is it perhaps, bipartisan unity we’re witnessing? No, it couldn’t be!
Do you understand the underlying racism with that sentiment, and that for as long as you don’t, that you’ll find it difficult to get a grip with reality?
Genocide apologist
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You don’t realise it, but people like you would vote for hitler or claim hitler was the same as other parties.
Lol, what a fucking stupid insult “oh, you oppose genocide? Well guess what, in my imagination, you vote for Hitler!”
Meanwhile, in the actual real world, you support actual genocide.
I don’t recall the democrats supporting rapists… Or threatening others.
Ignoring the accusations against Biden himself, systemic rape is a huge part of the genocide that the Democrats support.
You’ve literally got Trump now trying to become third term president to avoid jail. It’s a dictatorship mate
K, you were already committing genocide, I don’t really care about your precious standards and norms.
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You’re targeting 1 issue specifically
That one issue: the wholesale extermination of an entire country.
My point is, Trump is actually behaving eeringly similar to Hitler at times.
So were the democrats, when they committed genocide.
Trump is literally asking Israel to clear out so he can steal the land for trump hotels
Israel was already clearing out the land, with the full support of the Democrats, you only care when it’s Trump doing it though.
They’re NOTHING alike.
They’re both genocidal psychopaths
Trump is literally committing crimes against US people, and tried to deport LEGAL citizens
Sorry, I forgot that blueMAGA people like you are hardcore fascists who think only Americans are human.
Now, it was discovered he deported people who shouldn’t have been, and the supreme court can’t get them back.
That’s not really comparable to murdering hundreds of thousands of people who shouldn’t have been. Oh sorry, I forgot, only Americans are people.
You’re so focused on the 1 issue
Again, that one issue: the mass slaughter of an entire people.
and the good things they’ve done
“At least Hitler made the trains run on time”
that you’re ignoring the 50000 other ones Trump is doing
No, that’s you projecting. You’re the one who ignores the evil one side does.
Tim walz was literally bragging about feeding school kids.
Tim Walz proclaimed that the expansion of Israel was an “absolute fundamental necessity”, actively supporting the murder of tens of thousands of school kids.
Trump did nothing but talk about himself and “crooked hilary”, “sleepy joe”, etc
“I can accept genocide, but I draw the line at being rude”.
Seriously listen to yourself, you’re more upset by Trump bragging than you are about mass graves full of mutilated civilians and mass rape camps. What is wrong with you!
whether they understand it or not
If such a thing can be done without understanding, how do you know that you aren’t the one who has been pushed to the right and that you aren’t doing the work of dragging others along with you?
What does you being Canadian have to do with anything?
Interesting.
Obama dropped an average of 80 bombs per day on the ME and North Africa during his presidency. The number of civilians murdered is impossible to calculate.
For a USAmerican(or any other person), their primary concern would be their own safety, right?
Unless they can form/support a major third party, they are effectively forced to a two-choice system
Choosing not to participate in the two choice system is how you get a third choice btw
When both choices explicitely lead to mass murder its mandatory for any ethical person to do all they can to make some third outcome happen.
Voting quietly for what may be slightly less mass murder but certainly is still mass murder is a pathetic and shameful way to chart a course forward. A handful of us have more dignity than that.
What would the steps be for that?
I’m not USAmerican, so I don’t know much of the base level stuff there. I think they have a green party or so. But are they a good/distinct enough choice?
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Choosing not to participate is how you become dominated by one of the parties, possibly the one you like the least. The way to actually be able to participate is by trying to change the system itself. By that I mean changing First Past the Post voting in each state, as this is the means through which other political parties would be able to spring up. Another option is to run for government yourself as an actor for change within one of the major political parties.
Make no mistake, changing the system is possible. Alaska and Maine have both done it already. Other states can do it too. I think trying alternative voting systems such as ranked robin voting, STAR voting, score voting, or even ranked choice voting would be a major step towards other political parties and to move away from the most the least liked candidates winning elections.
I’m not sure why this was voted down, real lasting solutions require hard work and organizing to make change. Mind you, changing the system of how we vote alone isn’t the end step, but a starting stone for change.
The USA is not the world, and its citizens should start looking towards the welfare of the people their country murders.
True
You really don’t get it, huh?
People heard that shit last time, and they voted democrat, and Biden won. And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING changed.
At the end of the day, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, just like they did with trump, and with Obama, and with every single president who has taken office in god knows how many decades.
And still you’re here yapping “oh noes the horrors, vote Dems”.
Bro, the Dems aren’t LISTENING! Get a Bernie up there, or an AOC, or anyone that the people actually believe will do anything other than feeding the same interests they have been feeding.
And if you’re too thick to realize that, at least you’re not alone, the whole DNC is right there with you.
Are you denying that the Dems are shit? Just because the Reps are worse and currently in power?
What kind of an argument is that supposed to be?
What are you talking about the initial argument is completely insane to be begin with. I think Biden came into office and reduce child poverty or hunger or something by half as his first action.
We’re gonna compare that to Trump destroying the economy, removing due process, open up national parks to logging, letting DOGE cut departments with corruption, invading other countries?
Lol, while technically true there’s a big picture you’re missing… The start of his presidency did co-incide with some things like the child tax credit etc. that did drop the official measurement to a historic low of 5.2% in 2021, but was then quickly repealed by bipartisan support in Congress causing it to skyrocket to 12.4% in 2022.
In the US the child poverty rate had been slowly, but steadily, declining since the peak of the great recession… Until the Biden presidency circa ~2022 at which point it skyrocketed by the end of his presidency reaching ~2012 levels.
While technically true that “Biden came into office and reduce[d] child poverty [sic] by half as his first action.” It ignores that immediately afterwards he did “destroy the economy”. Don’t get me started on ‘removing due process, open up national parks, cutting departments with corruption, invading other countries’ because also yes!
Not to say Trump is better (we can all agree fuck that guy and all his cronies), but Jim Crow Joe is/was also evil, you’ve just been tricked into thinking otherwise…
Thanks for replying, I just recalled this:
Now we can say he failed but I can’t say that specific act is evil. Palestine on the other hand … ☠️
Like, I get your viewpoints and you guys think I’m trying to bury any negative viewpoints of the democratic party or that I’m brainwashed. Which is funny to me because I hate the establishment Dems. I just think posts saying both suck and attacking the Dems aren’t helpful because they currently have no power. The other party is causing a lot of damage and there seems to be no stopping them so kicking the feckless Dems when they’re down seems weird to me.
I also think the democratic party needs to be ousted by progressive candidates that have a good vision for the future. I’m not gonna lie though I don’t see it happening. The establishment Dems aren’t gonna bow down. Also, I see so many protests happening and although AOC and Bernie have made the news I don’t think I see the Dem leadership taking advantage of this and putting up a solid front either, like wtf is going on? I’m not sure it’s the coverage but it really seems like they’re lost.
The difference is the viewpoint:
attacking the Dems aren’t helpful because they currently have no power. The other party is causing a lot of damage and there seems to be no stopping them
If you buy into the underlying premises of how a liberal democracy functions (liberal used here as a technical term, not as a perjorative) then the only ones who have the power to stop the other party is the Dems and they actively choose not to. They’re neither down, nor out they’re doing their job of controlled opposition exactly as they are supposed to.
I still don’t like saying how they’re both the same because I fundamentally don’t believe that to my core (ie if they had all three branches we wouldn’t be talking about all this current mayhem).
However, I think I understand your point and I agree with it.
So thanks again!
They aren’t the same, one’s a sword and one’s a shield. The shield can’t effectively stab, but the sword can’t either if it’s forced to parry instead.
I engaged because it seemed like there was agreement, just miscommunication. Glad I was able to help cut through it :D. Appreciate you!
Biden gleefully engaged in one of the worst genocides of the era. He should be in a cell in the Hague.
100% agreed. I’m forgetting my history though, what did they used to do with genociders and war criminals? Something about a rope or a wall.
And its a little past time that the entire Democratic party acknowledge that what Biden did was genocide, and what Harris was proposing was continuing with it.
Dems shouldnt measure ourselves by what republicans do, if they ever want to win an election again.
I agree I think it’s fucking horrible and I think Chuck Schumer and everyone on any side of the political aisle that upheld this should be in a jail cell too.
What are you talking about the initial argument is completely insane to be begin with. I think Biden came into office and reduce child poverty or hunger or something by half as his first action.
Are you having a stroke? I don’t follow your point and/or syntax.
We’re gonna compare that to Trump destroying the economy, removing due process, open up national parks to logging, letting DOGE cut departments with corruption, invading other countries?
What do you want from me? Obviously we agree that Trump is worse than the Dems.
That still doesn’t make the Dems “not bad”.
Nobody said the Dems were perfect OR not bad through the chain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence - is what this post is.
Nobody said the Dems were perfect OR not bad through the chain.
Never claimed that someone claimed that. Again: how is the original post wrong?
Two parties in a two party system is no case of “apples and oranges”. That’s as close to a fair comparison as you’re gonna get.
Ghonorrea and pancreatic cancer are two things I don’t want to have. Is this “false equivalency” as well?
Two parties in a two party system is no case of “apples and oranges”. That’s as close to a fair comuarison as yo’'re gonna get
stroke much?
seriously, this isn’t a “fair comparison” because it doesn’t address any sort of nuance nor is it supposed to. It’s supposed to make people go: “yeah the dems suck too” rather than understand anything about what’s going on.
If you claim to be on the same page then whatever, we can just agree on our core points leave it at that.
stroke much?
I guess you never make typos, then. Huh? /s
seriously, this isn’t a “fair comparison” because it doesn’t address any sort of nuance nor is it supposed to.
I’m sorry that I slandered ghonorrea by comparing it to pancreatic cancer. Clearly I forgot the nUaNcE between these two horrible sicknesses. /s
Wait. How can there be any “nuance” if you can’t compare the two parties? Is a comparison of apples with oranges flawed because of the “nuance”?
It’s supposed to make people go: “yeah the dems suck too” rather than understand anything about what’s going on.
That’s what you think the intent is. I think that it’s supposed to state that the US democratic system is not suitable for a fair and equitable world and the Dems are not the solution of the mess the US is in.
You can have your own interpretation but don’t assume that this was OP’s intent.
When it comes to foreign policy and making the rich richer? Absolutely. The only potential difference is on some social issues.
its exclusive used on reddit, by you guessed it conservatives, and ru trolls, dont fall for that.
The funniest thing about non Americans is that they think most of us don’t fucking know this. It’s so annoying
Finally someone who speaks the truth, however humans are a lost case, you can’t un-slave mentality without changing the people.
That’s what happens when lobbies can just buy your politicians
One side are literal fascists and the other is not. Nothing else matters compared to that.
Nazi party vs Nazi collaborator party. Different, but both deserve the gallows.
Yea so this is why I support third parties. Dems need to be better than “not fascist”
Thus helping a facist wins. Great move.
So long as we are an FPTP system with the current 2 options it’s just shooting the non-fascist option in the foot for no reason. Gotta keep non-fascist around so you can actually have a chance at fixing things without getting gulaged.
Both parties are fascist
Objectively false
I love how 3% third parties with no chance of upending either party are super effective at killing specifically non-conservative campaigns AND helping checkers-players feel smug faster. Take a bow for being part of today’s problem.
Hows it feel to simp for a party that can’t get a 3% advantage on donald fucking Trump? If that was our only option and we are effectively voting at gunpoint then there never was any “democracy” to protect.
I love how democrats with no interest in catering to their base of voters are super effective at preventing third party and progress candidates from even getting on the ballot or in front of voters, so you can sit there keep saying they have no chance of winning. I love how liberals will excuse voting for the genocidal maniacs you’re convinced are your only option because you’re comfortable enough under this system that you’re willing to work within it and turn your cheek to all of the violence it commits at home and abroad.
You only care when the genocide comes to your front door, what about your fucking neighbors who are getting evicted and thrown out of their homes because their housing is too valuable to somebody else’s monetary interests to just let them live there in peace? What about the homeless, the working poor, the food insecure, the largest prison population on the planet who coincidentally are legal to use as slave labor? Are they not worth fighting for as long as you aren’t the one on the streets, working for starvation wages, or in prison? In 20 years, are you going to get a “progressive” in office that will offer platitudes about actually treating those people like human beings as they do next to nothing about it? Capitalism requires us to live under the threat of homelessness, of imprisonment, of starvation. Our government is completely captured by capitalists who will not allow you to vote this away, because without this level of coercion their system will collapse. All they have to do is make you believe you are not being coerced, and if anyone is then they deserve it actually, and that is precisely the role played by our two parties.
A better world is possible, but it sure as hell isn’t going to come about through any “solution” sold to us by those who collect vast power and profit within the world as it is. THAT is today’s problem, the refusal to recognize where power lies and what interests it has. Not the third party voters who already see the system for what it is and always has been. Not the ones who are struggling to bring an end to this system that is designed such that its only material interest is in finding new ways to remove our rights and boosting candidates who will carry that out.
Hows it feel to simp for a party that can’t get a 3% advantage on donald fucking Trump?
Feels better than simping for a party that can’t get 3% of the votes in the first place
Reading isn’t your strong suit, is it?
The system as it stands does not support third parties and Democrats are the only hope we have of changing that system without massive bloodshed and suffering.
both sides are literally fascist. one is just covert about it.
You really should look up the definition of fascist, because you are using it wrong.
Which parts of the definition don’t they meet?
Let’s go with Umberto Eco’s definition since it is well known and it is numbered for easy reference.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism#Overview
The only part that might apply to Democrats is #6.
2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 13, and 14 all apply to the Democrats
How so?
From Wikipedia:
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Opposed to Marxism, democracy, anarchism, pluralism, free markets, egalitarianism, communism, liberalism, and socialism, fascism is at the far right of the traditional left–right spectrum.
Democrats are right-wing, but not far-right. Democrats are not authoritarian or ultranationalist, Democrats are not characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, or belief in a natural social hierarchy. Democrats are not opposed to democracy, egalitarianism, or liberalism.
Democrats are most definitely authoritarian and Ultranationalist. They are also hugely militarist and autocratic, as well as holding a strong belief in hierarchy. They’re also opposed to democracy and egalitarianism.
“Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in democracy, separation of powers, civil liberties, and the rule of law.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
Democrats do not reject political plurality.
Democrats do not reduce democracy (rather they increase it by defending voting rights).
Democrats protect the separation of powers, civil liberties, and the rule of law.
Democrats do not fit the definition of nationalism, let alone ultranationalism.
They do not hold strong beliefs in hierarchy, oppose democracy, or oppose egalitarianism. That’s just an outright lie.
Democrats are not authoritarian or ultranationalist, Democrats are not characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, or belief in a natural social hierarchy
guys, do i tell him?
Genocide apologist
Why did the Biden regime give $18B to Israel to help murder Palestinian civilians?
Can you answer for any of Obama’s equally vicious war crimes?
Trump and his fascist goons are worse. Period. End of discussion.
Biden was the one who first proposed ethnically cleansing the Gazan population.
Do you think Biden is the prime minister of Israel?
We’re talking in an American context here. Don’t try to deflect.
The only deflection is pretending that what is happening in Gaza is Biden’s idea and not a continuation of 70 years of policy held by both parties.
"[Supporting Israel] is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.”
- Biden
Period. End of discussion.
You fucking baby
Go ahead, tell me how Trump and the Republicans are better than the Democrats. I’m sure any explanation you give won’t make it glaringly obvious don’t belong to any minority groups.
Who said anything about the Republicans being better?
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One side are literal fascists and the other is the former’s enables.
FTFY
It’s okay to hate both.
Much less ok to pretend both are the same
Go back to reddit.
Nazis vs Nazi collaborators. Yes they’re different, but both deserve the firing squad.
And it’s ok to strategically vote for the least bad option rather than empowering the most bad option while still acknowledging the system is broken
Absolutely agree with this statement.
Honestly, I read this thread and can’t comprehend how a civilization as advanced as the United States of America thinks that defending a binary choice of democracy is a good thing to do… It’s impossible to represent a country with a few million people like that, imagine ~300M. Anyway, keep going at each other’s throats for your party color… smh.
It’s not an advanced civilization, they have slavery enshrined in constitution.
What part of the Constitution are you referring to?
13th Amendment I assume. Slavery is allowed as punishment for any crime.
“indentured servitude” is the euphemism they use.
Obviously the bestest democracy in the history of the entire universe doesn’t have slavery.…huh, I haven’t noticed that…
I don’t blame you, I was educated that it abolished slavery. But there’s a very big “except”. It was partially added to help sway the Confederate states to make them happy that they can keep slaves if they find enough things to arrest them for.
It’s part of why Jim Crow laws happened. And it’s exactly why America has the highest amount of people in jail than any other nation. Slaves are cheap labor.
So… I should just lay down and take it? I’m not sure what point is being made.
Yes, but Americans hating their government is exactly what got us here.
Doubling down on that sentiment is only going to make things worse.
You understand that, right?
Nah, you don’t hate your government nearly enough
Well, you expect your hate to create for you a few comrades, but it’ll only make for more hillbillies named Conrad.
Cute, but maybe the classist stuff isn’t actually a clever tool.
You know why they’re called red necks?
I’m not an American. I hate your government and it hates you.
Hating the government is right and good. The problem is the crushing of the left, the popular front, and the Democrats taking up all space for opposition to the Republicans, while wanting to be “polite Republicans” and maintaining the status quo above all else is what gave opening for hating the government to take this reactionary form.
Lack of criticism of the US government in the first place is what got us here. You can say the GOP is worse all you want but you must admit that the Democrats are massive fuck ups either if you want things to ever get better.
You can’t keep falling for this notion of “every criticism of the democrats is supporting the GOP”. Its not even an election year for Christ’s sake.
“I want the USA to suffer and die”
Ftfy. Only one party is actively funded by our enemies and is enacting favorable policies to them.
“our enemies” LOL you Americans are so ridiculous. Turn off the TV, you’re just some dope who works for a living, absolutely no one is your enemy except the dictatorship of capital who are represented by political parties in your country and run capitalism.
Both of your parties carried on illegal wars in my country, toppled the government, left a power vacuum that consumed my family and I still don’t think of you as my enemy.
So you’re calling Putin a good guy now? Not the best look.
This is a fucking bonkers take. Nowhere was Putin mentioned. You people have completely lost your grasp of reality.
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You calling Israel a good guy now? Not the best look
Thinking of politics in terms of good guys and bad guys is kindergarten-level.
I literally said nothing about Putin, you brought him up out of nowhere. Maybe you should go to a psychologist and get your paranoid delusions under control.
You should ask yourself why this is what you got from the comment you replied to. Because that’s very clearly not what was said.
“I want the USA to suffer and die”
trueeeeee 💯💯💯
The democrats were committing genocide. GTFO with the “funding our enemies” Ultranationalism.
You are right about one thing though, I do want the USA to suffer and die, given both sides are fully committed to nationalism and genocide.
This was in Canada and we asked people, how much would you pay to clean one lake from acid rain pollution? And we asked other people, how much would you pay to clean up all lakes in Ontario from acid rain pollution? And people gave roughly the same number.
Point is, the vast majority of people are black and white thinkers. You’re either cleaning pollution, or you’re not. 100% of the party supports cutting off aid to Israel, or they’re all literally committing genocide. You are merely one of the vast majority.
What are you talking about? What do lakes in Canada have to do with the fact that the Democratic Party is fully institutionally committed to fully supporting Israel and its extermination campaign?
Republicans are fully committed to supporting Israel and its extermination campaign. Democrats have several members who have called for ending aid to Israel. They are not the same.
Democrats have several members who have called for ending aid to Israel.
Like 3 right. so 99% the same. So we’re back to telling people to be ok with just slightly less evil. Whcih was tried in the last election and failed spectacularly.
15 Senate Dems vote to cancel billions in Israeli military aid
There’s 49 senate Democrats, which means 30.6% of Senate Democrats have voted for ending aid to Israel. 0% of Republican senators voted to cancel aid to Israel.
Furthermore Republicans absolutely love to abuse pro-Palestine people in the worst ways they can, including arresting and deporting pro-Palestine people and cutting off funding for colleges that allow you to protest. I don’t think that’s “slightly less” evil.
Finally even “slightly less” evil is by definition less evil. Getting in a car crash at 80 MPH is only slightly less likely to kill you than getting in a crash at 90 mph. So what’s the point of hitting the brakes?
To be honest, to someone who’s observed this conflict for a long time, your side is getting its ass kicked. Israel has taken more land for 8 decades and no one is stopping them as they take more. You need every last advantage if you want to turn the tide. Don’t be lazy, make the necessary distinctions between those who might help you and those who will do whatever a judge will allow them to do to harm you.
Not a bad point. 70% of dem leadership being in support of war crimes in exchange for $ is a lot better than the 100% that the republicans have. Still not great but I’ll take it.
To be honest, to someone who’s observed this conflict for a long time, your side is getting its ass kicked.
What is your “side”? Neither the GOP nor the DNC are on my side. They’re on their donors’ sides. On the side of Zionists, the military-industrial complex, and other corporations that benefit from US imperialism & Israeli settler-colonialism.
Only as many token Democrats are allowed vote against this as will not block it. It’s political parlor trick known as the rotating villain (though in this case, rotating hero might be more apt). See also the parliamentarian.
Really‽
Of course
Your oligarchy sponsors both parties all the time.
I am not in possession of them.
Only one party is actively funded by our enemies
You don’t need to be in possession of anything to acknowledge the easily verifiable fact that they are both sponsored by them.
Israel?
Again…
Again what?
I sometimes forget this place isn’t inhabited by eighty year olds
ok
WTF is this even supposed to mean lmao
Only one party is actively funded by our enemies
Incorrect, both parties take money from Wall Street. Only a tiny, tiny minority of the Democrats don’t, and those spoiler Democrats are hated by the DNC far more than the DNC opposes their esteemed Republican opposition.
If you refuse to see the capitalist oligarchs are the enemy that created the conditions for Trump, then nevermind and carry on, as there’s nothing that ever could convince you.
The Republicans have all three branches of government and are fucking us over! I know, let’s drag out the both-sides-are-the-same arguments!!
Take your cynicism and both sides arguments and shove them off your ass.
You got a real shelf to be shoving things off
Democrats are far from perfect, but last time they were in power they… invested in infrastructure, forgave student debt, helped Ukraine defend itself, and tried to give everyone healthcare.
Republicans have now crashed the (global) economy, increased disease spread, decimated public departments and services, fired thousands of critical workers and veterans, retaliated against people for their Free Speech, limited rights of women, immigrants, and LGBTQ+ people, made us less safe against wildfires and contagions, started to gut Medicare, turned all our allies against us, raised prices on everything, engaged in corrupt theft of our tax dollars, and now want to deport legal Americans.
“BoTh SiDeS!”
EDIT: lol, the instant downvote from OP
Downvotes are disabled on my instance; multiple people think you wrote something inane. I have no problem replying to you telling you that you live in a dictatorship of capital where both sides are the same but you are so propagandized and ignorant you can’t even see the truth right in front of your nose. One side enables the other, the US functions as a whole. The democracy there is kay fabe and predetermined. You don’t get a vote for the board members of Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Blackstone, Raytheon etc.
It blows my mind that even now, there are people like you who claim they can’t tell the difference between Biden and Trump.
It blows my mind that you interpreted what he said that way.
I quote, absolutely directly:
both sides are the same
It’s a breathtakingly stupid take.
I didn’t see Biden and Trump in that quote. Facts are that both sides are just doing what they can get away with according to the crowd they’re trying to appeal to. If left to their own devices, both sides will engage in heinous behavior. The only thing stopping the Democrats from doing more Republican things is in a way, their branding as “good guys”, whatever that may mean to Democrat sided citizens. The point is there is a lack of scrutiny on our end and the whole good vs evil black and white bullshit distracts us from the fact that the people in charge of the Democrats are just as capable of evil and are just two sides of the same coin taking different approaches. There was a time when the Republicans were the good guys and the Democrats were the evil ones and that can switch just as easily as it did before. The whole Red vs Blue shit is a distraction. He never said it’s okay to vote for Trump or okay not to vote against him and it’s extremely disingenuous for you to say that that’s his fucking take.
You have to remember that, unlike you, some people consider the lives of foreigners to be worth as much as the lives of Americans
I can tell the difference, in the same way I can tell the difference between a father that molests his children and the wife that covers for and enables him.
Curious how democrats decided to do genocide over obstructing any of the dastardly acts on your list. Is it lost on you how the democrats are controlled opposition?
If, in 20 years, your choice is between a democrat who wants 9 genocides and a republican who wants 10, which would you choose?
The one who wants fewer genocides, how is that even a question?
But much better would be using those 20 years to empower progressives at the local level, so they have the experience to get elected to the state level, which gives them the experience to be competitive at the federal level. No one is saying to just support the Dems forever. You can spend 1 day every 4 years helping the Republicans lose, and spend the other 1460 fighting for better options. I recommend it, in fact.
Voting lesser evil slows the descent into fascism while we build the progressive base necessary for a progressive to win the general election. No one is saying the lesser evil is good, we know it’s evil, that’s why we call it the lesser evil. But it is the lesser evil, and when you have a choice between two evils winning, the lesser evil is preferable.
Voting for a third party with no chance of winning, or not voting at all, does not give us better options. Building a successful third party takes time and many, many wins in smaller elections. Personally, I’d rather spend that time under a neo-liberal regime than a Christofascist one. They’re both bad, but one is unambiguously worse.
Vote progressive for every local office you can. If there are no progressive options, consider running yourself or convincing a politically inclined friend to do so. If we all show up for every single election, and flood every level of government with progressives, maybe in 20 years we’ll have a better choice than 9 genocides vs 10 genocides. But every Republican win helps gerrymander and disenfranchise us further from that goal.
Surely nobody thought of this 20 years ago when George fucking Bush was in office. Or 40 years ago when Reagan was in office. This idea of pushing the liberal party left and running locally is a totally fresh and original idea and definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own which demands concessions from the ruling class at the threat of upheaval.
It’s not a new idea, we just haven’t been implementing it. And who said anything about pushing the liberal party left? It’s not about parties, it’s about politicians and their policies. Run third party wherever it’s viable, run Democrat where it isn’t, it’s really not that important what letter is next to your name. What’s important is your platform.
definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own
That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. What is “showing up to every election to vote for progressives” if not organizing the working class? What kind of organization do you think has a lower barrier than voting? If we can’t organize the working class to vote one day every couple years, how on Earth do you expect them to jeopardize their safety and livelihoods with more direct action?
And even then, those approaches aren’t mutually exclusive. Voting in no way prevents you from organizing. In fact, strategically voting against the fascists explicitly helps the push to organize. It’s much easier to protest when the reaction is a smug “I’m talking now”, than when the reaction is having your degree retroactively nullified or, y’know, getting deported to an El Salvadorian gulag.
I understand the dissenting opinions, but it’s mind-boggling people can’t grasp this in the modern world. There’s almost 350 million people in the US. It’s impossible to immediately get everyone on the same page and make meaningful change in a short period of time.
If you abstain from voting, you absolutely allow the greater evil to thrive and become worse. Look at the extent that Bush went to after 9/11. No one should want that.
You can’t justify it anymore dude. Trump wants a forced relocation of Palestinians. No one on the Dem side mentioned that shit. Republicans want to see the end of the Palestinians and that’s true genocide. Dems had to walk the line between an ally and a group getting mass murdered.
We have contract obligations to assist Iseral. Biden was just following what America had promised. Not supporting genocide. But sure blame him if you sleep better.
Now you’re faced with Trump Gaza #1.
Let’s not pretend that Trump’s plan to forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza isn’t a revival of the same plan put forth by Biden behind closed doors.
But in a statement Thursday, the Egyptian government rejected efforts to move Palestinians from Gaza as a “blatant violation” of international law that could undercut ceasefire talks and threaten Middle East relations.
A Western diplomat in Cairo, also speaking anonymously because the discussions have not been made public, confirmed receiving Egypt’s message of its strong opposition through multiple channels. The diplomat said Egypt was very serious and viewed the plan as a threat to its national security.
The diplomat said Egypt rejected similar proposals from the Biden administration and European countries early in the war, which was sparked by Hamas’ Oct. 7, 2023 attack into southern Israel. The earlier proposals were broached privately, while Trump announced his plan at a White House press conference alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
The only obligation the US has, under the Leahy Law and International Law, is to cease weapons transfers to Israel for violating human rights and perpetrating crimes against humanity.
Biden is a self proclaimed Zionist, he absolutely supported this genocide, both materially, diplomatically, and ideologically.
won’t someone think of the contractual obligations??? 🙀🙀🙀
Good thing chuck schumer and the dems are out there leading the resistance by… uhh… making sure the left is pro-genocide and sending record levels of bombs to conduct said genocide. Hell yeah dawg that shit’s awesome and exactly what we need from the people who totally oppose Hitler 2 in office and will do everything in their power to stop him
The ‘both sides’ people drive me nuts. Democrats definitely suck, but unless there is electoral reform there are only two choices and it’s clear Republicans are a party of Christofascist hacks. Morons standing in the middle saying “everyone sucks” aren’t helping anyone but their own ego.
Do you have a plan for that “electoral reform” that doesn’t involve said ballot box?
Do you not see the inherent contradictions there?
No I completely get the problem there. It’s going to be really hard to get electoral reform if there are no longer elections. So my focus is on preserving Democratic institutions long enough that maybe we can improve them. Obviously party leaders have no interest in seeing changes that threaten the duopoly, but there are Democrats (particularly at the state level) who have been open to reforms like rank choice voting.
If suddenly Republicans stop attacking the rule of law, checks and balances, gerrymandering districts, overriding voters, and coddling white nationalists then maybe their party would be capable of enacting positive change as well.
If you have some secret third choice that can change the system without bloodshed or voting for one of the two parties I’m all ears. If you’re going to tell me to vote third party then I’d like you to show me how you think a third party candidate can win the presidency because that’s never happened and it’s never even been close.
You talked right past the inherent contradictions and did not see them.
Assuming the US election process remains unchanged for the foreseeable future how do you get electoral reforms using the electoral process that you agree needs reforms?
I suppose I’m open to suggestions?
I understand what you’re getting at but I don’t know what kind of answer you want here. Are you suggesting that violence is the only way to achieve change? Are you suggesting that third party candidates could win a national election and then eliminate the two-party system? Are you suggesting that electing more Republicans will result in a political future that offers more power to voters to choose their own government? Do you think that electing fascists will accelerate the collapse of the state and then a more progressive ideology will rise from the ashes? Are you just cool with what the Republican party looks like right now and the way that they govern?
Do I need to specify that I’m not saying you should vote for every Democrat no matter what and that you really should consider candidates as individuals?
I guess I see the Democratic party as a deeply flawed party (with abysmally out of touch leadership) that needs serious reform and I see the Republican party as a cult of christofascist fucks that need to be defeated before they completely erode individual rights and entrench their own power for generations.
So yes. I get the contradiction in saying “You should vote for one of the two parties in order to create a political landscape where it is possible to one day move beyond the two-party system”. Partisanship makes everything harder. But if you really think both parties are the same and that it doesn’t matter which one you pick then I don’t know what to tell you.
I don’t have a good answer for you, I have a:
Your thesis is fundamentally flawed, if we are ever going to get an answer you need to stop getting mad at the people working to help you find a solution.
What I (and others) are trying to tell you is that the christofascist fuck cult goes much deeper than the surface level that you are fixated on. The “deep flaws” you see in the Democratic party aren’t bugs, they’re ‘features’.
The current status quo is deeply broken, I think we can both agree on that, yes?
The threat of violence (along with capability) has historically been a very effective tool for change (for better and worse), but I do no not see it being effective in a world where drone strikes, autonomous murder copters and nuclear weapons are a thing.
I also argue that the concept of electoralism is fundamentally broken and so electing more Republicans, Democrats, 3rd parties, goldfish, etc. is not going to solve/change anything either.
Accelerationism replaces current problems with worse ones, but my understanding is that if you’re focus is on your grandchildren and thinking in the timescale of centuries then maybe. IMO it’s one hell of a big gamble with an incredibly high cost and low odds of substantial/any progress.
What are your thoughts?
I suppose I don’t see that as a productive perspective? You’re not offering any solutions or actions to take to enact the change you want to see besides doing nothing until we collectively figure out how to have a revolution.
The system is flawed. Maybe you’re right that it is fundamentally broken and cannot be reformed but disengaging from voting only supports the status quo and those that are already in power. I think it’s worth it to vote for candidates that share some of the same values as me even if they aren’t perfect while continuing to put political pressure on leaders that are not serving the public effectively. I would vote for someone one day and join a protest against them the next day, I do not see that as a contradiction. That is just being civically engaged.
Also I know I’m probably coming in hot here but I’m truly not mad or upset. I think these are the sorts of conversations on Lemmy that are really great and hard to have in other settings. I appreciate your thoughtful responses. It seems like we’re pretty aligned on what the problems are. I’m very open to solutions that don’t involve harming others but if you aren’t a voter I’d strongly encourage you to consider voting, though I agree that voting alone will not solve every problem.
Modlog for this comment says rule 2, but that rule is about reposts??!!
According to the modlog, this is the removed comment:
Democrats are far from perfect, but last time they were in power they… invested in infrastructure, forgave student debt, helped Ukraine defend itself, and tried to give everyone healthcare. Republicans have now crashed the (global) economy, increased disease spread, decimated public departments and services, fired thousands of critical workers and veterans, retaliated against people for their Free Speech, limited rights of women, immigrants, and LGBTQ+ people, made us less safe against wildfires and contagions, started to gut Medicare, turned all our allies against us, raised prices on everything, engaged in corrupt theft of our tax dollars, and now want to deport legal Americans.
Well, I think this is worth highlighting.
The rule 2 refers to the rule 2 of the instance, not the community, which is:
Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
The part you decided to show in the modlog is also a little deceptive. Here is the missing part:
“BoTh SiDeS!” EDIT lol, the instant downvote from OP.
The rule 2 refers to the rule 2 of the instance, not the community, which is:
Ah that makes more sense.
The part you decided to show in the modlog is also a little deceptive.
I left that out not to be deceptive, but because it wasn’t germane to everything else, and it was an edit.
Not sure what you said but 100% agreed
Haha, a removed comment, I shall assume everything it said was 100% in line with my beliefs.
You do realize you don’t have to assume and can just look at the modlog, right?
What a sad way to view the world and all its viewpoints…
I don’t know why you all tolerate this pathetic c3nsorshep here. All I said in my “unalived” comment was basically that there is 1 party in the USA that illegally disappears people, crashes the global economy (for you and me!), is corrupt, etc, and the other one tried to give everybody health care. “b07H s1des” right!?
Your daily reminder that blueMAGA doesn’t consider Palestinians to be people.
