Until now, whenever I point out that any and all societies are fundamentals based on the capacity of violence, people got uncomfortable and/or denied it.
Sweeties, people got murdered so that you could have a democracy* because that gives the power to the people** as they have the most capacity of violence, so they need to be appeased.
Sidenote: the eu, the UN and so on are also existing to appease enough of us to reduce violence as it is a shared interest.
riots are not a valid form of protest unless all peaceful means have failed, and then they are far less effective than other non-peaceful methods. riots are what you do when you are too stupid to find a solution.
Right, and protests will make trump think twice? You realise that trump is not the mastermind right
riots dont do anything. calling a riot a protest is just a way to rationalize mindless looting and destruction of innocent people’s property. if you think we are in a situation where peaceful means no longer work then organize a real attack that directly hits the people you’re mad at. if the situation isn’t bad enough for coordinated violence with a real goal then it’s not bad enough for violence at all. I don’t care about trump specifically and I never mentioned him, what I care about is people ruining good causes to justify mindless destruction and theft. protest if peaceful means are still there, fight if they aren’t. riots are neither of these things, they’re just idiots breaking things for fun.
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Tankies are just another flavor of BootLickers who bend over bare ass for Authorities.
Some dorks in this thread are the perfect example of who potential protesters need to ignore.
I brought up “truckers blocking highways and important intersections” to my very good (but desperately clueless) friend. Violence free, requires few bodies, historically effective.
He said “but what about the people they inconvenience?”
I’m like dude. Inconvenience to power is. the. point.
I love him but he’s a fool, guy thinks protests are people smiling and holding clever signs.
Sad thing is he’s representative of a lot of people.
They’ll be happy when things are better but idgaf about asking their advice. They don’t read history, the closest theyll get to a protest is the news coverage, and they’ll never be satisfied with less than some impossible dream of a “immaculate
conceptionprotestation”So like, fuck em
Not to sound elitist, but most people are ill-informed from what I observed. They mean well, but they form their views and opinions from sources that aren’t great. It doesn’t help either that we are inundated by pleasures from all sorts of media, which distracts us from paying attention to what matters more.
Well that can’t be right because I read on here that liberals are the worst.
I don’t mind riots, so long as it’s targeted in some way, and not just the random breaking down of privately owned small businesses (which hurts no-one at the top).
Riots are grenades. You don’t get to precisely target what gets broken and what doesn’t.
Hahaha mandem thinks there’s still going to be small businesses in the future
A certain percentage of any group doesn’t give a fuck about the movement and just likes being assholes.
Either rioters police their own or they will be judged as equal to the worst of them, because that’s all people will be shown on TV.
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Yeah, this takes some time to settle in for me
Yes. A quite recent example from Germany:
Letzte Generation (Last Generation) a group of climate activists which glued themselves onto streets, usually carefully planned, organized and communicated with emergency services (such that ambulances can pass). They just got all of the hate and achieved not really much.
Then there were some farmers who were unhappy about governmental advances to reduce or remove the “agricultural diesel” subsidies. They’ve blocked highway entrace ramps with burning car tyres and dung, went really hardcore compared to the Letzte Generation, and finally got what they wanted.
The issue with peaceful protests is that they usually don’t go far enough.
In your example, the farmers went two steps further and it made the difference.
Having the support of major news media and the lobby arm of Big Agriculture (who partially incited the riots) surely helped more than their methods.
Maybe the farmers just had an “easier” goal. Just remove the taxes again but the last generation wanted to stop climate change which isn’t just done with one small step…
I can name several historic US riots which were not justified.
The Tulsa Massacre of 1921.
The series of riots occurring after the removal of confederate statues in the last decade.
When men marched with torches and firearms after the inauguration of Barack Obama.
During the BLM movement a white couple was charged with Arson of a restaurant as they were trying to delegitimize peaceful protests.
Meanwhile the most successful social movements were not accomplished with violence at all. Women suffrage, equal rights for protected classes, gay marriage, etc. Some movements had a mixture of peace and violence, such as rights to unionize, but far more effective than riots were the affected workers like miners and industrial manufacturers striking.
The suffragettes were badass, they did firebombings and all that.
I was referring more to the women’s sufferage movement in the USA, led by people such as Susan B. Anthony, when I made my comment.
The UK Suffragettes only turned to violence in 1912 after a decade of more peaceful tactics, the organization itself only forming after almost 40 years of unsuccessful campaigning from 1867 to 1903. As a result of the window shattering and firebombing campaigns many were imprisoned and started a hunger strike in which several died, leading the House of Lords to pass the Cat and Mouse Act of 1913 which sent them home to die there after they sufficiently starved themselves to help absolve the government of wrongdoing. The suffragettes didn’t see any results until 1918 when women over 30 and men over 21 were allowed to vote. Equality was only obtained in 1928.
Good on them for sticking it out to the end but the militant portion of their campaign was short lived and impotent.
Stonewall, the catalyst for LGBT rights, was a brick throwing riot, you could not be more wrong here.
The LGBTQ movements go as far back as 1924 in the USA, and Illinois was the first state to legalize homosexuality in 1962.
Stonewall Riots was in 1969.
One could even argue that the real turning point for gay rights was: A) APA removal of Homosexuality from list of mental illnesses in 1973 and B) Reagan gutting federal funded and operated mental asylums which for completely unrelated reasons I think was a bad idea.
The first legalized Gay Marriage law was passed in Massachusetts in 2004 but still is not recognized federally until 2015.
So stonewall accomplished fuck all, congrats
Your claim was that the movements did not have violence at all, not that the violence featured in them didn’t accomplish anything. You’re moving the goalposts.
I suppose that’s a fair criticism, but you would be hard pressed to find any human activity which has always been completely 100% devoid of violence so it rather strongly implied that the [successful aspects of] the movements were devoid of riots or threats of violence.
There have been successful progressive movements that have achieved their goals through violence as well though. If you don’t limit the actions of progressives to the last century, the abolitionist movement and the civil war were incredibly violent and achieved their goals through that violence.
It’s like a hammer. It can be used to build something great. Or it can bludgeon.
January 6th.
Yeah but low hanging fruit, half of Americans don’t even seem to believe it happened and some think it was justified.
I imagine there’s a lot of overlap between how those who feel that about 1/6 feel about the riots you listed.
I hope so but I think it’s still too early to say history views it negatively. In at least a few years time I’m sure we’ll look back and agree that it was bad, but it’s a current political issue as of now.
It was secretly Antifa but also wholely justified but also the media is lying to you about it but also I was there and it was Based AF.
This is so historically inaccurate I don’t even know where to begin with it.
I recieved historically innacurate replies and my response was to cite historical evidence and outcomes to set the record straight.
Problem is people can bullshit faster than I can tell the truth.
people can bullshit faster than I can tell the truth.
This is exactly what got us where we are. Well Said.
You think the sufragette movement was free from violence?
You think gay rights were achieved without violence?
Read a book!
IMO without Malcolm X and the Black Panthers I don’t think folks would have listened as much to MLK Jr. either.
On top of that…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign
During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it.
Well Yeah, have you seen the Bob Marley Biopic? Whitewashing is precisely why his music is seen as stoner-feel-good-vibes and not the fiery protest music it was. He’s closer to the Black Panthers then he ever was to Cheech and Chong. But that’s not the reality they want you to accept.
Whitewashing is precisely why his music is seen as stoner-feel-good-vibes and not the fiery protest music it was.
Well, I’d say that has more to do with music sensibility. His music used slow tempo, heavy and steady beats, was bass-driven, and melodic vocals. That isn’t angry music for a western audience. Going back centuries, angry western music is fast paced, unsteady rhythms, big changes in volume, discordant sounds and lots of high frequencies.
It’s not whitewashing. It would be very hard to make an angry protest song set to a waltz beat too. The medium is the message, and the medium of steady droning beats is calmness not anger.
That sure sounds convincing for made up nonsense based on your preconceived feelings about nothing substantive at all. Fortunately, I actually have a Bachelors (hons) in Music. A sizeable amount of which involved sitting through 4 years of lectures on Music and Western Civilization, covering roughly 4000 years of Western Musical History. So, I can speak fairly competently with a fair amount of detail about this. A Waltz is dance, when I say that, I mean it belongs to the genre of “dance music.” As in, that was what it’s function was originally. As a dance when you think of a waltz you’re probably thinking of ballroom dancing, which would be the Viennese Waltz. Which is where people without a formal education in music history think the Western Art Music, or WAM (see “High Art”, “Aristocratic”, “Snob”, “Wealthy Elite”) hegemony of White, Germanic, Male cultural dominance begins. This is in no small part because traditional Western Musical Canon has been heavily and selectively codified to be such. East of Germany and Britain gets the worst shake in The Classical Period, in my personal opinion. Opera is huge and obviously, Italy is massively important to the tradition. However, Opera is taught as it’s own separate thing, because the tradition of Opera spans Pre-Medieval Music, through The Enlightenment, Classical Period, Romanticism, Modernism, Post-Modernism and beyond. It is both “Music” and “Theatre” but it is not “Musical Theatre.” Musical Theatre is a true American art-form, emerging from Vaudeville. (4000 years is a long fuckin’ time and I never get to flex on people like this, anyway, back on track). In terms of WAM a layperson’s idea of a Waltz is, conceptually, Chamber Music. It’s all hoity toity ball gowns and bowties and German Tradition, German Tradition, German Tradition. It goes to show you how successful the homogenisation (exclusion of the history and influence of Mediterranean, Balkan, Celtic and Briton music. Despite their obvious connections) of European musical history actually was. Probably one of the most visible cliche’s people get exposed to in media is the “grand ballroom meme.” Think protagonist opening up the Ballroom Doors during a waltz and couples dance in perfect circular unison, maybe they all suddenly stop for comedic effect. Or, camped above the festivities, maybe there’s a sweeping overhead shot showing the Dancing in Unison and it’s always Swan Lake, or The Nutcracker, which were never danced to at a ball like that, ever because they are Ballets performed by Orchestras and NOT chamber music by a fucking viennese String ensembel.
Half of the instruments in those pieces didn’t fucking exist at the time. That’s because movie and film producers know fuck all about musical history which is why people have these misconceptions. In actuality The Waltz, or as it is known in and throughout Europe for many hundreds of years prior “Volte” (lots of variation of spelling), or “slide dance” is a type of dance in 3/4 time with emphasis on certain beats accentuated, or shortened. (N.B. You acttually confuse Beat, Time Signature, Rhythm and Tempo in your comment. By referring to aspects of each of them incorrectly, but this is a history lesson. Not a lesson on music fundamentals). There are tonnes of examples of waltzes which are sinister, macabre or that conjure feelings of anger and despair in the Tradition of Western Art Music. Jean Sibelius’ Waltz Triste, Saint-Saens Danse Macabre. Fuck, if you Google “Angry Waltz”, you get some dude’s school composition project call “Angry Waltz” which is actually not a bad example. If you want to step out of Art Music for a look into folk Music, Norwegian Folk Music has 3/4 dances, waltzes, called Springar which are dances with region specific stress patterns. I know you’ve never listened to someone perform using a Hardingfele, but Springar are not slow and folk dancing can be very fast paced and are inherently a-harmonic at times. Very harsh to listen to if you’ve never been immersed in that musical space. We can even talk about The Waltz as protest music. Look no further than Shostakovich, basically everything he wrote under Stalinism put his life in mortal danger. He would outright flout what Stalin imposed on Composers and the wider Soviet Artistic community. Sometimes he would comply maliciously, just to walk the thin line with Stalin’s ego. If not for his massive cultural import and popularity (he was a genius) he would have been murdered and he knew this. Being an authoritarian government, any art Stalin did not like was grounds for immediate execution of them and their families, or forced labour, or banishment and starvation. Waltz No. 2 from Suite for Jazz Orchestra 2, I know you will know and I want to impress upon you. That the sheer, ungodly weight, of the fear Dmitri Shostakovich lived with everyday under Stalin was absolutely dwarfed by the planetary mass of the balls it took to write music like this under Stalinism. This is slow, nuanced and deeply defiant, most importantly it was protest music under the guise of Nationalism.
Expanding on this, I think you have no fucking concept of what protest music is. Bob Dylan’s Desolation Row is Protest Music, Jimmy Hendrix covering The Star Spangled Banner is protest music. For fuck’s sake my guy Listen to the WORDS of what is being said in these songs. Have you heard For What it’s Worth by Buffalo Springfield lately? It sounds like it was written about America Yesterday. Literally, listen to that song in the context of the Trump regime and Luigi Mangione. I don’t understand why Buffalo Springfield isn’t being blasted EVERYWHERE in the USA right now. Joni Mitchell’s Big Yellow Taxi is protest music, Green Day’s American Idiot is Protest Music.
His music used slow tempo, heavy and steady beats, was bass-driven, and melodic vocals.
Swap vocal for strings and you’ve just described Prokofiev’s Dance of the Knights to a tee. Does that Sound Angry and Western enough to meet your standard of protest music? It isn’t protest music.
It’s not whitewashing.
It is Whitewashing, it is absolutely egregious whitewashing. Bob Marley was an extremely important political figure, Legend and the Bob Marley Biopic are designed to appeal to white audiences. This is taken from the wikipedia page:
"Despite its generally positive reception, Legend has been criticized for being a deliberately inoffensive selection of Marley’s less political music, shorn of any radicalism that might damage sales.[25] In 2014 in the Phoenix New Times, David Accomazzo wrote “Dave Robinson, who constructed the tracklist for Legend, [said that] the tracklist for Legend deliberately was designed to appeal to white audiences. Island Records had viewed Marley as a political revolutionary, and Robinson saw this perspective as damaging to Marley’s bottom line. So he constructed a greatest-hits album that showed just one face of the Marley prism, the side he deemed most sellable to the suburbs. […] If you’re looking for mass-market appeal to secular-progressive America, you don’t include songs that invoke collective guilt over the slave trade, nor do you address the inconvenient truth that the bucolic Jamaican lifestyle of reggae, sandy beaches, and marijuana embraced by millions of college freshmen, exists only because of the brutal slave trade. […] the songs on Legend offer just a brief glimpse into his music. The definitive album of the most important reggae singer of all time is a hodgepodge collection of love songs, feel-good sentiment, and mere hints of the fiery activist whose politics drew bullets in the '70s.”[26] Vivien Goldman wrote in 2015, “when he does get played on the radio now, it’s the mellow songs, not the angry songs, that get heard – the ones that have been compiled on albums such as Legend.”
The Medium is The Message
YOU are full of crap
Going back centuries, angry western music is fast paced, unsteady rhythms, big changes in volume, discordant sounds and lots of high frequencies.
You have no fucking idea what you’re saying, you’re just stating what you think might be true based on how you feel and you just described The Build up and Drop to Bangarang by Skrillex.
Well, I’d say that has more to do with music sensibility. His music used slow tempo, heavy and steady beats, was bass-driven, and melodic vocals.
Translation: “I have never heard, or engaged with, any of Bob Marley, The Wailers, or Peter Tosh’s music, outside of The Legend track list verbatim and I did not understand the lyrics of those I did hear.”
That isn’t angry music for a western audience.
Reggae IS Western Music, resulting from the SLAVE TRADE you absolute TIT! Have you never listened to reggae?
It’d be nice if someone gets something out of reading this, I really enjoyed thinking about music academically for a while and I hope no one ever listens to this person as an authority about any aspect of musical history, the slave trade, musical theory ever again.
TL;DR In short literally, nothing you said was correct and it was so egregiously, offensively wrong, that I was inspired to write this. As a dude with an education and 4ft long dreadlocks, up yours.
Wow, man, you sound so angry! I can feel the anger from here! It’s coming off you like… like… like the slow and steady, groovy sound of a reggae tune!
Well, I actually quite enjoy discussing Musicology in detail. I would be remit in pretending it isn’t satisfying to dress you down like that. True, most academics usually get offended when someone who’s never opened a book about a subject, make wildly inaccurate statements about their field of study and tell them their wrong. It’s more about about making sure anyone who stumbles upon this thread never mistakes your confidently incorrect statements as evidence to support a broader narrative based on lies, manufactured by the cultural hegemony of white, corporate, post-capitalist America. You’re free to go back to being wrong now.
I have not but I may look into it
If you feel:
☑️ So empty
☑️ So used up
☑️ So let down
☑️ So angry
☑️ So ripped off
☑️ So stepped on
☑️ So filthy
☑️ So dirty
☑️ So fucked up
☑️ So walked on
☑️ So painful
☑️ So pissed off
You’re not the only one, so let’s start a riot!
Love me some Three Days Grace
Why does he look like Notch? 😨
You know why
Did you see what they did to the pool, Mr. B? They flipped the bitch!
Was this faxed to lemmy?
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Retvrn to tradition - The New Internet will be a vast network of fax machines, each whirring and grinding and printing all day, every day.
COME AT ME NOW AI SLOP!
pigeoned
Haha, what is this from?
Found it on knowyourmeme just now but this has been around for ages. Think I first saw it on 9gag around 2010 😅
Aaah, the 2000s. Such Rare Auld Times.
I didn’t know that this is the perfect way to enjoy memes. Posted to Twitter, screenshotted, discussed further in Tumblr, printed out, faxed, scanned, and then posted to Lemmy.
Bottomfeeder unite 🐟🐟🐟
Just use a fax to email service FFS