A family says their newborn son nearly bled to death and is fighting for his life after he was circumcised at a New York City hospital.
Tim and Gabrielle Groth said their son, Cole, underwent the circumcision at NewYork-Presbyterian Morgan Stanley Children’s Hospital in Manhattan, where he was born on March 31.
Genital mutilation should be 100% illegal instead of only applying to girls.
I agree with you fully but there’s a discrepancy that needs to addressed. Now, before you get the wrong idea, I’m NOT defending or excusing anybody here. The medical staff and the parents should be held responsible for nearly killing this newborn. Child genital mutilation of any kind should be banned.
Now, with that out the way, Male circumcision and female genital mutilation (or FGM, which is what I believe you’re referring to when you say ‘only applying to girls’) are not directly comparable. Male circumcision typically only removes the foreskin of the penis whereas FGM removes the both the clitoris and labia (I shudder while typing this out). It would be like castrating the entire penis and testicles.
Again, this sort of thing should be banned and no child should suffer from the decisions they had no say in.
It would be like castrating the entire penis and testicles.
More like removing the glans and foreskin, but that doesn’t make it much better. There are definitely varying degrees of awfulness, but it’s all bad.
While there are some truly evil and horrific practices like removing the clitoris or sewing the vulva shut, some female genital mutation is “just” removing the clitoral hood, which is directly analagous to the foreskin.
Most people can agree that this practice is deeply wrong, and that it is still genital mutilation. And so I think categorizing male genital mutilation separately as “circumcision” is downplaying it.
I’ll just say it’s very clear you’ve never seen what a botched circumcision does to a penis. You also don’t seem to know the biology of the male genitals very well either if you think it’s “just skin”.
Why don’t we instead focus on “bodily autonomy”? No one should have unnecessary medical procedures done against their will and without their consent. It’s a pretty simple rule that applies to everyone and covers most of these issues simply.
I’m fine with adults mutilating their foreskin, but I want the decision left up to the individual. Having the parents do it when they are a baby leaves the individual with no choice
It would be like castrating the entire penis and testicles.
That is very much not accurate. Genital mutilation (of both genders) generally focuses on removing the ability to obtain pleasure from sex while maintaining reproductive capability.
Circumcision is roughly analogous to clitoral hood amputation (one type of FGM). The foreskin also contains a substantial number of sensory nerves (Meissnar’s corpuscles, and ~10k-20k nerve endings specialized for pleasure). Additionally, the glans (head) is subjected to the external environment in a manner which it was not adapted for, resulting in formation of thickened, layer of skin to protect it. These two things, taken together, result in greatly reduced sensory and pleasure capabilities in the penis. The reason for its commonality in the US is the historical puritanical belief that sexuality is wrong and desire to repress sexuality in little boys.
FGM is wrong. So is male genital mutilation. Inflicting either on those who can not consent is a crime against humanity that should not be accepted as commonplace.
I agree it should not be performed on a non-consenting individual, ESPECIALLY KIDS, but please do not claim the result is guaranteed to reduce sensitivity, as it is simply not true. Source: I am living proof the opposite can actually happen!
I had phimosis and experienced paraphimosis which can result in losing the whole thing. A circumcision was one of the best decisions of my adult life. It is NOT a sexual death sentence or designed to be only that. It can in fact be a saviour.
Most genital mutilation on kids is not done due to necessity.
It’s like saying we should perform mandatory surgery on everyone, but most everyone has to undergo it with no tangible benefit, just unnecessary risk – is it cool that we know how to perform the procedure in cases that medically necessitate it? Obviously. Does that mean there is a reason everyone needs it? Of course not.
I’m curious: the person you replied to didn’t say they were comparable, so why did you feel the need bring it up?
In my experience, people who point that out when no one has made the comparison are usually insecure about an issue that affects men getting attention and potentially eclipsing the issue affecting women. Like people who point out that female victims of domestic violence die more often from their assaults during discussions about male victims of domestic violence.
You sure you wanna be that person? Try harder not to be, please.
FGM removes the both the clitoris and labia
There is an entire horrifying spectrum of FGM, not just what you posted.
While you are correct, the traditional FGM as proposed by Kellogg (the guy who made non-religious circumcision popular in the US to prevent masturbation) was burning off the clitoris using an acid.
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How can someone be so confidently incorrect?
When you see a comment you disagree with, start by taking the time to research their claims.
Pretty sure in Egypt they still cut off the clitorises of preteen girls as tradition.
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LMAO…that comment got removed.
I expected that commenter to not reply (out of embarrassment, because most people with that kind of attitude tend to be too small to admit their mistakes).
Instead, it seems like they doubled down…what did that comment say? Ahaha
It should be in the modlog.
He basically just copy pasted “only” a bunch of times then questioned my reading comprehension and called me an imbecile.
Circumcision is barbaric and backwards
Religion doesn’t get a free pass either. Superstition is no basis for mutilating babies
America is one of the only places in the world that still thinks this disgraceful practice is OK.
All because they followed the ideas of a nutter who made cornflakes…
Shit’s fucked
Any cosmetic body alteration should only be done according to the will of the body-haver.
Poor little guy is brand new to the world and just wants sleep, warmth and food. Instead he gets this 💔
At the will of the people who are supposed to be keeping him safe from harm…
🥒✂️
Edit : in jest. It’s a correction for the wrong body part emoji 💔
Stop
molestingmutilating children would be my advice.*mutilating
Yes of course, edited.
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As a Jewish person there are traditions and practices that are better abandoned
i believe one baby got oral herpes on the babies genitals that was passed to from the MOHEL.
Please be ChatGPT nonsense, please be ChatGPT nonsense. I’m not Googling that shit. :((((
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Crazy idea, don’t do cosmetic surgery on a baby?
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Haha, best response here.
The only reason a scalpel should be anywhere near a person’s genitals is to treat a serious health issue. Which includes dysphoria.
Stop mutilating your children.
Stupid fucking parents.
Why do they still perform such barbaric rites in the 21st century in the first place?
I mean look who’s sitting in the oval office. Science has progressed but most humans have not.
Yet theyre against mutilating genitals when it comes to trans people.
Yeah, the first time I heard of people protesting against “mutilating children’s genitals [in North America]”, I thought it was a protest against circumcision. I thought, “Wow, we’re finally moving society forward!”
…nope. It was backwards again.
As sick as it is, personal preference
Not for the newborn it isn’t. Something as personal as your own genetals should be your own personal choice, but in this instance the owner of the penis gave no consent.
It is usually not the personal preference of the person operated on.
There are a lot of medical decisions that simply should not be left in the hands of parents, and this is one of them, if not the score leader.
It’s not a medical decision. The procedure is completely unnecessary and unwarranted without a diagnosis.
Yeah—personal preference. As in, not the preference of the fucking parents.
Kellogg
Until about a year ago or something I didn’t even know that it’s such a common practice in the USA. For me it always was just a religios thing of Jews and for some rare medical cases where the foreskin opening is too tight.
But now I know that it’s apparently considerd normal? dafuq
Be assured it’s defenetly not in germany unless you are jewish.
Yeah, it’s said to have some kind of nebulous health benefits here.
It really goes back to the turn of the 20th century, when all kinds of health gurus claimed it would curb masturbation (which they blamed for a variety of ills), but nobody says that anymore.
…or Muslim. But yes, the US has this horrible practice of mutilating all kids. Just like some third-world countries.
Nah, just the male children.
Fortunately it’s been in decline since the late 70s, but it still shouldn’t be done
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Doing it as religious tradition isn’t a justification as well, its still fuckin weird to mutilate a kids genitals without their consent
It is weird. Religious tradition is an entirely different beast to tackle though.
It’s ironic because the whole reason I’m even here on lemmy is because I was permabanned from reddit for telling someone to crawl back in their hole because they were defending circumcision while claiming female genital mutilation was abhorrent. As if mutilating a penis is perfectly fine but don’t dare mutilate a vulva.
I know this isn’t the main topic here but it just reminds me that body shaming men is okay but body shaming women isn’t. Especially when it comes to sex organs.
I feel like your argument loses something by being stated backwards. It (and Hacksaws reply) comes off sounding like you are more angry at women than the patriarchy and want to be able to mutilate and body shame them. Rather than what I hope and assume is the case, that you want all genitals protected from mutilation and shaming.
I’m just bringing up the double standard. You’re correct in your assumption that I don’t want ANY genitals being mutilated.
But it’s not patriarchal that circumcision is normalized for aesthetical reasons. Women circumcise their sons because they don’t like uncut penises. I’ve NEVER heard a man say anything like that outside of not wanting their child to feel different because other boys are all circumcised. Women do it for aesthetics. Men do it because of a fear of being different. There’s a difference.
It shouldn’t be done at all but the idea that uncut penises look gross is inherently a woman thing.
I’ve never heard a woman say they did or would have their baby boy circumcised because uncircumcised penises are gross, or any other version of aesthetic reasons. The religious reasons are rooted in the patriarchy, as is the “need” to look like one’s father and male relatives.
In the case of female circumcision, it’s a way of enforcing the position of women as property, making it more apparent if she’s ever had sex so her virginity can be sold to her husband. In its most extreme forms it can require she be cut open in order to give birth, and resewn each time. It can block clumps of menstrual blood and lead to infection and sepsis. In less extreme versions it can prevent her from feeling any pleasure during sex, in order to prevent her from having any except that imposed by her husband.
Anecdotally, I’ve known more mothers who fought for their child not to be circumcised than fathers. I fully encourage men to put their feet down on this issue too. This is very often a battle that the parent who cares more wins on.
Aesthetics are the most often cited reason for male circumcision in the USA. It is rarely medically necessary, and only religiously motivated among Jewish people.
Fathers wanting their boy to look “like all the other little boys” is aesthetics
Fathers and mothers. Both parents need to sign off on the procedure.
It would be aesthetics if fathers did it because they think it looks better. But that’s not what’s happening. They do it over fear that their sons will be ostracised for having different looking dicks. That’s a social reason, not an aesthetic one.
The social situation in which the other naked little boys ostracize the one with a different dick is patriarchal. Must conform to the “normal” masculine standard. Otherwise the fathers could just teach all the little boys to be more accepting.
As for women, I’ve been in plenty of women -only places where there was frank talk about men’s anatomy, and the general consensus has always been, we can love any and all penises as long as the owner isn’t a dick.
Men do it because of a fear of being different.
I think a lot of people make a very reasonable argument that a huge reason this anxiety even exists is because of patriarchy
Sometimes it not some patriarchy conspiracy. Just sometimes.
Nobody said it’s a conspiracy. It’s practically a natural phenomenon. Why would anybody be afraid that their child would look different from the other boys? Because they don’t want the other boys to bully him. Why do we all know that the other boys would bully him? Well, the good news is there’s a lot of research on this topic but the unfortunate thing is if you wanna learn more, you’ll have to engage with a word you don’t seem to like for some reason.
It’s the same reason men want their sons to play sports and do manly things. Most of the dads pushing the patriarchal agenda aren’t doing it out of some hyper masculine superego, they just want their kids to fit in. The really sad part is that it’s because they know what it’s like to not fit in. They perpetuate the trauma because they were traumatized.
Yeah maybe I missed the /s but I just wanted to show that body shaming and genital mutilation is fucked up and society’s (patriarchy) acceptance of it against men is pretty shitty overall. It would be much better if nobody got body shamed or mutilated non-consentually.
Yeah, I love how everyone loves “big dick energy” and “small dick energy”, but if someone said “loose pussy energy” and “tight pussy energy” it’s practically a hate crime lol.
How about we just stop insulting anyone’s genitals instead?
That’s the point.
Weewoo
Cleeerp cleeerp
Turn around and put your hands behind your back.
STOP RESISTING
Wait… We’re still arresting people for hate crimes?
From recent news I thought committing hate crimes and war crimes should get me a political appointment! I must be doing this wrong.
Hate crimes? No we just decided that your tattoo and lack of criminal record means that you’re a highly connected member of a Venezuela street gang, acting as a foreign operative and combatant on US soil.
Don’t say goodbye to your kids, they’re going with you, unless you can arrange for childcare for the foreseeable future in the next 2 minutes over the phone.
☹️
Oh, and we would tack on a hate-crime charge, plus vulgarity for mentioning body parts in public, but you’re not getting a court date anyway, so don’t worry about those.
In parenting classes in my liberal area, the nurses will say “I’m required to tell you that circumcision has medical benefits”. Then they fume how it’s based off bad research and cut themselves short. “However it’s not like your son will be lined up for a nude photo. You can break the cycle of trauma”. I’m lucky to live here.
Damn you have some good nurses. In my liberal area the best they did was mention that it’s optional (literally some people think it’s not). We also have liberal relatives who did it to their son just so he’d “look like dad.” Wtf
My partner gets mad when I point out that the same “medical benefits” can be said for FGM.
Unless you’re some religious nut job, there is zero benefit and a lot of harm you can do by circumcising. So stop doing it.
EDIT: I was wrong, there is some medical reasons for the procedure later in life to address problems.
This is a general statement, and not factual. To say there is zero benefit (across the board): wrong. There are benefits, medically, for specific people with issues that warrant it. I had a later-in-life circumcision for medical problems, so I know. To say it is something you should do to a newborn: very wrong. This is something that has a fucked up history, and should only be done when needed (or wanted, I suppose) later in a person’s life… of their own choosing.
I’m sorry, I hadn’t considered that it might be done later to correct a problem. I honestly hope you weren’t offended.
No worries! I took no offense worth you not speaking your own mind… I just wanted to give my own thoughts on the matter.
These exchanges are why I love Lemmy.
Oh, fuck off, nerd.
/s
🍿
This has to be qualified more strongly. Most of the medical benefits of circumcision are apparent only after puberty. There is no medical reason to circumsize a baby.
I agree.
There’s a really easy way to tell whether or not you should decide to circumcise a penis. First, check if it’s your penis. If it isn’t your penis, don’t circumcise it BECAUSE THAT IS NOT YOUR DICK AND YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE WHICH FLESH BELONGS AND WHICH DOESN’T ON IT.
niche medical conditions walking in
Jkjk
I had a foreskin issue where I couldn’t pull it back. Got it removed around age 10. Wasn’t fun but now my captain doesn’t wear his cap to dinner. Looks normal too.
I assumed they were specifically talking about babies. If there’s a genuine issue then it makes sense, but I don’t know of anything that’s diagnosable at birth that would require circumcision.
I know a lot of young adults also get the procedure for the same reason as you. I was in your boat until probably my mid-teens before things fixed themselves, but it clearly doesn’t work out that way for some.
My bro had one for medical reason, there’s no problem with that even though we usually dont do it here
cut off usefull natural things without consent…win stupid prizes
It depends on the day for me whether increased sensitivity would be a good or bad thing for me. But that’s mental illness and the accompanying drugs for ya.
“It depends on the day whether more pleasure would be a good or bad thing for me”
That’s a more precise version of your statement, I think.
Im Not sure if sensitivity always equals pleasure
Which is why I think sensitivity is the wrong word.
But he’s talking about sensitivity not pleasure?
Regardless, I’m circumcised, and if I was more sensitive in most situations, I wouldn’t last long enough for my wife’s toy to push her over the edge (I can get her off without it, but I’m too big and she’ll be sore for a week.
Like, my prozac can be performance enhancing.
The subset that wants it removed could still get that done later, right? Those who don’t aren’t given the option. Putting it back is a bit more difficult.
Being intact is also preventative for some stds, iirc, but I couldn’t find anything to support that
I looked into this claim a couple of years ago. I couldn’t find any well executed study that showed this. It’s mainly a talking point that people who argue for circumcision claim is true, but I couldn’t find any scientific support for this.
I was unclear. Circumcision predisposes you to STD transmission iirc, but I also couldn’t find anything.
Because its the opposite actually. Circumcision reduces risk, inclusive of STIs as well as UTIs. Its a significant, but partial, reduction in risk. This has only been shown with PiV sexual activity and not with PiA sexual activity, which could be an important factor.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8579597/
Adult circumcision works out well, including for a family member who did it in his 30s due to severe phimosis (which is also linked to penile carcinoma).
I think the only appropriate answer to circumcision is not at birth, only for a clear medical need until they are an adult, and at that point it’s their decision.
But I doubt you’ll find anything peer reviewed that suggests an increase in STIs after circumcision, I’ve only ever seen the opposite, and I did a lot of reading on it before my son was born.
This is the correct way of looking at it. At birth should not be the time to do this… it should be done later in life, by the person’s own choosing.
Largely beneficial for UTIs, which is the leading infection in young boys. UTIs in young children are often hard to diagnose before spreading to the kidneys
Then later in life when getting too old to wash yourself the benefit returns again
