To this day, she remembers the racing thoughts, the instant nausea, the hairs prickling up on her legs, the sweaty palms. She had shared a photograph of herself in her underwear with a boy she trusted and, very soon, it had been sent around the school and across her small home town, Aberystwyth, Wales. She became a local celebrity for all the wrong reasons. Younger kids would approach her laughing and ask for a hug. Members of the men’s football team saw it – and one showed someone who knew Davies’s nan, so that’s how her family found out.
Her book, No One Wants to See Your D*ck, takes a deep dive into the negatives. It covers Davies’s experiences in the digital world – that includes cyberflashing such as all those unsolicited dick pics – as well as the widespread use of her images on pornography sites, escort services, dating apps, sex chats (“Ready for Rape? Role play now!” with her picture alongside it). However, the book also shines a light on the dark online men’s spaces, what they’re saying, the “games” they’re playing. “I wanted to show the reality of what men are doing,” says Davies. “People will say: ‘It’s not all men’ and no, it isn’t, but it also isn’t a small number of weirdos on the dark web in their mum’s basements. These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”
the hairs prickling up on her legs
Some incel somewhere: “WTF IS THIS WOKE BULLSHIT!?!?!?!”
It is horrible how some people treat others, but it is not my responsibility or prerogative to police others actions. There’s nothing wrong with being single, and not dating is a personal choice which I would never criticize, but blaming 50% of the population for the actions of a minority is the definition of bigotry.
It breaks my heart that things are becoming more hostile and hateful. I hope I live to see the pendulum swing the other way.
This seems to be a pretty narrow view point. They’re not asking you to police other actions, but rather voice your disapproval when you see it. Nobody can control the actions of others, but it is also undeniable that men are more likely to listen to other men. To see something, and sit idly by, is comparable to supporting the action. If you do not at minimum vocalize your discontent, then you are fine with it being done around you.
Your current suggestion is that a minority of men harass 50% of the population with no societal repercussions? When that 50% that’s being harassed is like “Hey, we need help from the other 49% to bring about a societal change” your first response is to call them a bigot? In order to substantially change the harassment being done, everyone needs to step up.
That is not my suggestion at all. When I can help, I do. When I can say something, I do. Still, we should not overgeneralize. Everybody is an individual and should be treated as such.
But at that point, why get caught up in the semantics of the statement? Why not just simply address the concern they are raising? They aren’t being literal, they don’t mean “every single man” and getting defensive when they aren’t talking about you won’t help.
i hope i live to see a 50% decrease in human population, so i’m 100% with her.
i hope i live to see a 50% decrease in human population
What kind of person are you?
a rational one.
would you prefer we continue to deplete the world’s resources to build our magnificent dystopia and leave a hellscape in our wake?
Pro tip - I’ll absolutely snitch on the guys I know that you probably shouldn’t date. Maybe you have a male friend that’s the same.
99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing, but with billions of people and instant communication. this type of thing is bound to pop up. and because normal people aren’t looking at this type of thing, they’re echo chambers of degeneracy. but it really bothers me when people use sex based generalizations for things like this. millions of people isn’t very much on a global scale.
I think it is more widespread than you imagine. If admiration for Andrew Tate is an indicator of seriously misogynistic attitudes, then the statistics (for the UK) are quite shocking:
Nearly a quarter (23%) of 15-16-year-old boys have a positive view of Andrew Tate compared to only 10% of girls at this age.
Furthermore, one-third of dads (32%) view Andrew Tate favourably compared to 10% of mums. This positive view is even higher among young dads: 52% of 25-34-year-old dads compared to 19% of mums.
Additionally, 49% of 25-34-year-old dads believe their child has a positive view of Andrew Tate.
Source: https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/research/research-into-online-misogyny-and-image-based-abuse/
Man these numbers are horrific we need to bring back McCarthyism but for these people
Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Andrew Tate
bring back McCarthyism
Fuck outta here with that authoritarian bullshit. You truly want to hold millions of people responsible for falling victim to Zuck getting high off Cambridge Analytica and globalizing the flood-gates of shit spewing? Content serving algorithms have torn communities apart, promoted violence and hate world-wide for most of the past 20 years. That’s plenty of time for ‘re-education’ and here we are reaping the benefits.
Hurt people hurt people. Human billionaires hurt society. Generational wealth oppressing generational trauma. Authoritarianism leads to the same power imbalance, and purging ideologies is anti-human.
Not when the ideologies in question are anti-human it’s not
Yeah, I’ll give you that one.
Maybe my opinion is influenced by my geographic position. I never would have imagined that many people of my generation support him. Where I live, saying you like Andrew Tate would be like saying you support Putin, maybe worse.
Then I’ve got some bad news for you about Putin, too.
As a man, it’s also reasonable to say this is nearly non existent among women. Does it happen? Of course. But not nearly to the scale it happens among men.
It’s moreso a matter of semantics. If someone says “Men are disgusting”, you don’t have to take it literally. It’s conveying the meaning that there is a large enough amount of men that are doing this that it is a massive problem in nearly every woman’s life. The saying would be a bit less valid if it was so extremely prevalent. But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
So sure, with as many people as there are, it’s “bound to pop up” but saying it that way seems to undermine just how prevalent it is. And correcting a statement that expresses the sentiment that this is a large problem by saying “But not all men are bad” is counterproductive. They are talking about the systematic issue among men. You could instead respond with “Yea, we need systematic changes” or something along the lines that address the concern they are raising.
But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
Thats’s most certainly accurate, since in the US, 1 in 5 women have been raped over the course of their lives.
So, Sexual harassment would be far more likely. I’d guess, 4 in 5 women, if not 5 outta 5.
When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned. I don’t disagree that there are systemic problems but I think that they were focusing on a specific and small subset of a larger problem.
I might be wrong about this, correct me if that’s so. but because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
It’s much muddier than that. Most cases of rape are someone the victim trusted. And most of those cases don’t ever get reported to authorities. So there are many men may have taken advantage of a woman, and that woman see’s him as an abuser, but nearly nobody in that mans life even knows about this. The victim may stay silent for any number of reasons. There are almost definitely cases like that involving men you know, but are unaware of what they did. As for the solution to these cases? Societal norms need to change. Consent needs to be required every time no matter what. There should never be pressure for sex, and peers should not encourage pressuring a woman into sex. Instead, the man will say the person stepping in is “cock blocking” when in reality they’re defending someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them. Men will back up other men in an attempt to help their bro “get their dick wet”. They will get women drunk in hopes they will have reduced inhibitions, or perhaps so drunk they don’t even remember the night. This is not as simple as “lock up the bad guys” when very few cases of rape involve being snatched up off the street.
When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned.
Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying. I do still disagree that groups like that are bound to pop up, at least not as much as they are right now. I think womanizing groups are far more common than dedicated racist groups online. Racism has taken a massive downward trend over the last hundred years. Of course, it is not fixed, very far from it. But I also think it is undeniable that racism is less of a problem than it was 50 years ago. That is the kind of societal change we want. If the internet were around 50 years ago, the insane number of group chats dedicated to racism would have been far larger than they are now. Bringing awareness to these issues, and especially men standing up to other men, is what will help bring a decline to the number of vocal sexist pigs and their echo chambers.
99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing
wow. naive.
Yeah, these days I’m thinking it might actually be a double digit percentage that’s onboard. The manosphere has enough reach to affect elections now, which I did not see coming.
I get called a conspiracist for linking the actual reports and investigations into this, but this was by design.
Almost every authoritarian/fascist uprising on record has started with the indoctrination and isolation of young, sexually insecure, lonely men who feel disenfranchised with the system because they’re depressed, horny and have mixed-up ideas how to be liked by others. It’s incredibly easy to peel off a massive chunk of this population and get them to start blaming the government, society broadly, science, knowledge, literally anything but their own need to improve their social skills and gain some emotional intelligence.
These are our dumbest, angriest, loudest men, and thus become the major influencing factor on their peers, online and off. They set the tone and everyone else just kind of goes along with it, or leaves them to grow and gain power in peace.
This shit is why I think regular therapy sessions should be a mandatory part of high school for everyone. Kids need better tools to deal with the shit they’re going through.
A few old-fashioned morons go a parent-teacher meeting and scream “We never had all this psychotherapy bullshit when I was a kid!” And everyone mummers to each other that yeah, we can’t impose our reason-based evaluation of reality on someone else’s ignorance, that wouldn’t be American!
Then their kid goes back to school the next day and continues to inflict a lifes with of trauma on their peers.
i did. saw it in 2016 and had a hunch before that.
the only thing that shocks me anymore is how naive most of you are.
It’s the same as everywhere, those who scream the loudest get heard
I feel like I’m in a different universe to most people. Only chance I get to call anyone out for anything is littering and playing music loudly in public. Honestly feels like confirmation bias, but I’m sure I’m wrong.
I think part of why she didn’t seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don’t even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
You’re absolutely right, but haven’t I read that they’re learning to lie about their presence in the manophere? So if it’s, say 10% who actively think and act that way, plus 15% passively subject themselves to it without going all in, but who aren’t really judging, that’s 1/4 guys who I wouldn’t risk a relationship with, many of whom are actively hiding their positions. I can see why it wouldn’t be worth it to date any man. Especially for someone with her experiences.
And my IRL impression is that it’s way more guys than 15% who intentionally expose themselves to it, and slightly more than 10% who fully buy into the misogyny.
I agree, and in my opinion, women and partners in general need to get better at leaving piece of shit men (or shitty partners in general). Many of them keep acting like this cause they get away with it after some small talk and a nice dinner just to be a piece of shit again next week. I’ve known girls who date men who genuinely claim that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote and all i can think is “why is this girl staying with someone who hates them?”
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I don’t understand your argument and you haven’t addressed the issue at hand.
Please spell out for me why a woman in a relationship with a man who believes that women shouldn’t have the right to vote, can’t exit that relationship?
Victims of abuse are victims
Note that the person you responded to didn’t mention abuse, you introduced the term “abuse”. We’re talking about women in relationships with assholes, not abused women.
Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.
You may better understand what someone is saying if you respond to their whole sentence and not just the part you wanted to attack.
Abuse is abuse regardless of how small you as an outsider perceive it. Women in relationships with assholes who believe they should have no rights are always being abused by the aforementioned asshole.
Women in relationships with assholes who believe they should have no rights
Firstly, the original commenter who described the kind of relationship we’re discussing didn’t say “no rights” they said “shouldn’t be allowed to vote” which is a very much more limited view than what you’re raging against.
are always being abused by the aforementioned asshole.
That’s not the situation that was described by the original commenter. Just because someone is an asshole and has reprehensible views, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are abusive. There’s a difference and if you can’t see and acknowledge that difference then you’re just engaging in misandry. In which case, best of luck, take care, bye now.
You sure do like to cherry pick and blast incel rhetoric eh?
Don’t worry about further response, you aren’t worth the time.
Misandry is when someone says men who believe women shouldn’t be allowed to vote are abusive.
Thank you for that elevated, nuanced take, king.
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Have you forgotten the entire context of this thread?
Nope.
Did you even glance at the article?
I read every word.
They also talked about … a man who doesn’t want his partner to vote
That is not what they talked about. They said “men who genuinely claim that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote”. That is not the same thing as a man who displays controlling behaviour over their partner.
Can you really not infer anything from that?
There’s no need for anyone to infer anything in this discussion, it’s quite clear and explicit what people are talking about.
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We understand people can be brainwashed/emotionally and mentally manipulated to unbelievable extremes - watch any of the hundreds of cult documentaries that have come out over the last decade.
Steven Hassan’s BITE model is a good start for that kind of information, the interesting thing being that a lot of those cult-manipulation techniques are visible in anything from individual relationships (not just romantic ones either, parent/child in either direction, “friends”,…) over cults and religions to workplaces and political movements.
Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.
Agreed. Assistance, implementation of which requires understanding of why they’re not leaving those assholes, worse, returning to them, or fall into the same pattern with a different asshole, all on their ostensibly free will.
The question is “how can the capability to leave the abuser be built”. It involves, in one way or the other, a change in the victim. Getting better at leaving pieces of shit.
Seriously I have difficulty, and this might be male perspective, to equate “need to get better at” with the frame “you’re at fault”. At some point, I needed to get good at cooking. Was it my fault that I couldn’t cook? Nope. It’s not like I didn’t show interest as a kid, it’s that noone ever bothered to actually teach me anything, so I didn’t know anything. Still had to get good at it. It’s a problem so you solve it. Why would I care wasting my breath blaming my upbringing it only distracts from learning. It can provide an excuse, but excuses don’t make dinner.
Ah, fuck it, let’s risk it. My edgetake on why some women end up again and again with assholes: Because noone told them (early enough?) that they can go to a kind guy, start a tickle fight, and get all the thrill they’ll ever want. It’s a function of attraction to the capability to throw down.
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You’re essentially saying “just nut up and do it.”
No. I said that the question is:
how can the capability to leave the abuser be built
I didn’t ever compare what’s necessary for that with learning to cook. The cooking thing was about how it’s silly to go from “doesn’t know how to” to “you’re at fault”. I used, specifically, an example far enough from abuse so it could be a general point, not tangled up with the dating assholes bit.
Where I did get into “How can it be built” was my edgetake later: Figure out why assclowns are so damn attractive that some women go back to them, put up with them, and then don’t blame the woman for having that attraction, but find a safe outlet. I’m sure that’s not the whole of the solution but I do think that it’s a necessary component.
These women don’t leave because these men are narcissistic assholes who have destroyed their self-esteem and made them think they are worthless and won’t find anything better and can’t live on their own.
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Fear.
We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.
Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality. My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.
We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.
We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.
I don’t disagree with that. I would support that in a heartbeat if I had the funds to do so.
Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality.
Sure, not all shitty partners, but there is often more going on behind closed doors than many people realize.
My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.
That’s called “love bombing” and is a common part of the cycle of abuse.
We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.
I don’t disagree with that, however, people like this tend to worm their way into positions of authority like a parasite that you can’t get rid of. The fact that they often have zero issues lying through their teeth to get you on “their side” is a massive issue that many of the general public simply cannot grasp (“why would my wife/husband/preacher/friend/etc lie to me?” etc…).
It gets even worse when someone like that gets their hands on the very methods used to build those organizations and tears them all down. See the current state of the USA for example. I lived with an abusive partner for 11 years, and there is an unbelievable amount of parallels between them and the current US administration. What they are doing right now is incredibly triggering, knowing that I essentially have no escape from it.
Instagrams algorithm purposely pits extreme opposing view points against each other to drive engagement via hate comments to sell enraged consumers knickknacks and graphic T-shirts.
Christian vs atheist
Red vs blue
Abortion vs choice
Even vegan vs carnivore
The faster we abandon social media sites the better.
What’s the point of wrestling with a pig? You both get muddy, and the pig likes it.
Maybe it’s because I grew up with the old, “mean” internet, but my response to communities full of trash is to leave them alone and let the blind lead the blind. Seriously, what the hell is arguing with them going to do? They expect to be challenged, they will not see reason, they will not suffer to be helped, and you are not going to be the person who changes that.IDK, instead of picking fights with random fucks in their own echo chambers where I’d just get banned anyway, I strive to be a positive example for the youngins around me in real life.
Yup. I’m not going to actively hang out with shitheads just to try and change them. I will however steamroll over them if they come into MY space and do it.
Guys seem to like going into a game together and fighting against overwhelming odds, working together to shoot down the enemy. Even if they “die” several times.
Maybe it would be interesting to get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap.
You’d be banned faster than trying to say “Tiananmen” on grad
r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being “brigaded” by bots or whatever
get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap
Such behaviour is called “brigading” and it’s very much frowned upon.
Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.
By yourself probably not. But a battalion of opposing arguments could possibly turn the tide. These guys have already demonstrated how susceptible they are to peer pressure, after all. And they’re not all online at once, so if they’re suddenly in the minority in their usually toxic forum…
So you need a coordinated effort of thousands of people who will get continuously moderated, banned or censored. OK, I admit that it’s possible, but I think I’d rather invest my time in other ways…
Well, if you have some to invest, could you see about getting “i.e.” into the default autocorrect database so we don’t have to go back and force it every time?
We should weaponize bots to do this. With AI it doesn’t even need to be real people anymore.
They’re using them against us and it’s long past time we responded in kind.
Then good news! There are people doing this. I’m in a discord where some people work on a bot that basically calls out that stuff on reddit. Making the bot is straightforward, the problem is it keeps getting banned for arguing. The hardest part is keeping the reddit account alive.
Additionally, those kinds of shitbags routinely get tossed out of respectable places. What brings the manosphere, and things like it, together is usually a shared experience of rejection and isolation.
Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. “Calling out” is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
They explicitly don’t want us non-shitty men there to harsh their vibe and will refuse to listen, so yeah, what the fuck are we supposed to do?
If I see it happening IRL I shut it down and use my 6’4" powers to look down at whoever’s doing it and give them a good scare, but I’m not gonna go to the fucking incel forums and make my day worse for no goddamn reason
Right. In real life you can look someone in the eye and see some semblance of humanity (or at least fear). Online, it doesn’t matter what you say or how you’re perceived, because people get to hide in their perceived anonymity. And you never know when some psychopath with no morals or sense of decency is going to have you swatted.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
Precisely. It’s completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.
Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. “Calling out” people in such places wouldn’t be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).
Basically it would be at most a performance.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community …
Me too, both. That we have responsibility for others and that we are not obliged to put ourselves at harms risk.
But this is a particularly shitty, maybe wicked problem. There are three groups: A bullies B, and C could stop A, but isn’t bothered by anyone. Now, is C obliged to pick a fight with A, or is B just in bad luck to be born as a B?
I think here, it is very easy to have strong opinions, while very hard to formulate a concise moral argument. Things get muddier/harder the more we factor reality in.
I explicitly stay away from such groups. I call it out in person, and politely check my friends when they say something that they might not realize is harmful, exactly the same way I expect them to check me, but that’s just it. That kind of discourse isn’t welcome in these groups because they were created with one explicit purpose: to justify and normalize the absolute shittiest behavioursof the most sexiest of male culture.
She’s right, it isn’t a small amount of men. But it’s a supermajority in certain circles, and a tiny, neglible minority in others. She, unfortunately, exposed herself to the worst of men enmasse. We should instead go to those latter circles, and avoid/ostracize those former circles, until they realize if their only goal is sex, they’ll have to figure out how to be a decent person first. And men, choose to be better.
The good men aren’t there and don’t even know what’s going on. I’ve used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
If you happened to go in there and speak against them, you’d just be banned and have your post removed.
Right. As a guy, I’ve never received a nude pic of a girl from a friend. I’ve never had a friend tell me that he sends girls dick pics. I’ve never been in an online community where photos of women are traded like what is described above - I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for this. I’ve never heard about anyone I know having their pictures shared, or anyone I know sharing pictures of someone else in an unethical way. This is quite simply a social sphere that I am completely excluded from. The idea that I have any responsibility or capacity to police this kind of behavior is ludicrous - what am I supposed to do? Talk to my friends and say “So, look at any unethical porn lately, bro?” Or spend my time seeking out toxic communities so I can debate them/report them, instead of going outside and having a life?
“I’ve never had a friend tell me he sends girls dick pics” Well he wouldn’t, would he? They know it’s toxic behavior even though they enjoy doing it and might even brag about it with equally toxic guys. This is a problem women constantly have, the men in their lives don’t believe things are happening because it doesn’t happen when they’re there. It’s a far less niche sphere than it appears to you, and I agree it’s probably not going to be out in front of you for you to do something about. But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so. So if they do, they’re probably not lying or imagining it. Even if your experience of that guy is completely different. And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so.
Ideally I wouldn’t assume anything based on such broad generalities. I would base my understanding on my understanding of the person making the claim. If the woman making the claim has shown tendencies in the past of lying and starting drama, I will likely do nothing, and will sort of quietly wander away to find another conversation because I don’t want to be involved in whatever shit she is starting now. Though I will also probably never be present for this conversation, since I probably would have removed this person from my life a long time ago and would actively avoid interacting with them, because it is an unpleasant experience. If I know the woman to generally be trustworthy and straightforward, I will say “wow, that sucks, let me know if I can do anything to help you feel better”.
I’ve known several women who confessed to me that they’d been sexually assaulted in the past. My response, more or less, was “wow, I’m sorry that happened to you. Let me know if you want to talk about it more, or if there is anything I can do to help.” And that is the extent of what I can do, since I have no idea who the people who assaulted them are. It’s not like I can just bust down some random guy’s door and beat him up.
And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
Such as…? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I assume you are talking about the conversations where guys say things like “no means yes, yes means anal” - which, again, I have never, ever been involved in. Like, ever. I don’t know who these people are or where they hang out. I infer they exist based on second hand accounts if others. But they seem to not like me, and don’t invite me to their parties.
When my male friends and I talk about women, our conversations usually go: ugh, why don’t girls like me?; ugh, my girlfriend is being distant and standoffish; ugh, my girlfriend broke up with me. I’ve never had a friend speak poorly of women in general, say they “deserve” anything as a group, or anything like that.
So, again, this seems like a big case of “I can’t do anything about this, so I’m not going to worry about it.”
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Honestly knowing what I know about guys, I wouldn’t date them either if I was a chick.
“Chick”?
Chick is slang for female.
We haven’t used that in a while
Nor female in the specific way used right here
(^posted kindly, Calipher!)
Yeah I’ma use chick and female as I see fit.
Bet we have more common ground than not!
e.g. what’s oriental?, prob a rug
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beautiful quote, saved…saved to my wank bank! had you going there for like 7 periods! I need to share this on twitter
but no very pretty never heard it before
It is really disturbing how there are entire online communities of men basically dedicated to teaching each other how to be abusers.
they moved onto other subs once that got banned, or on another platform, they are sitll there on places, like twoxchromosone, femcels,etc. alpha, beta thing came from pickup artists videos, and incels/and other men binge on that content.
I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
Sound advice, it’s useful to recognize the bullshit lingo & rhetoric that’s all a part of these idiotic schemes (see: “Pickup Artists”). I realized that one of my acquaintances had started slipping those catchphrases into convos years ago, and it caught me off guard. They hadn’t seemed like much of an asshole before, but it raised my hackles knowing that they weren’t just reviewing the media, but integrating it into their personality/beliefs without any sort of filter.
The red-pill/PUA industry preys on the weak-willed. They exploit vulnerable and weak-willed women for sex, and weak-willed men for money.
“beta males”
Just keep in mind that the whole alpha/beta/etc taxonomy is a myth created by the misogynists.
I’m a big man with a gravelly voice and a shaved head. Bikers always give me the nod. I doubt if anyone would call me a beta (not that I care) but I’m fully bought into not being a shit towards women. So associate with whoever you want to, but don’t assume from appearance or behavior that only one certain type of man is less toxic. It’s not that simple.
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r/FemaleDatingStrategy is/was a subreddit as well (seems inactive since 2023), it was basically the same as r/theredpill, just for women.
Weird that this is getting downvoted so heavily, but nobody is elaborating why, just downvoting it and moving on.
Because the sort of people who would downvote that, have learned to avoid trying to get into these conversations.
People would likely be downvoting because if we’re having a conversation about group A doing Z bad thing to group B, changing the conversation to “well group B does Y bad thing to group A” is generally seen as a not cool thing to do.
The problem for me now is, someone is going to come and try fighting me over how men can be, and are, victimized. I know that. Anyone with a brain knows that. Men need more support than they’re getting, also, and toxic masculinity (ironically, the same kind you can find in the Man-o-Sphere) is so, so mean to men, telling them to walk it off, to suck it up… I can’t tell you how much work I’ve had to do to help deprogram the fiance, who spent 20 years in the Army… But that wasn’t the discussion. It’s changing the topic.
You’re not allowed to talk about any problems women face, without someone saying, “but men have problems, too,” and then getting mad at you for being a man-hater if you don’t immediately drop the thing you were talking about to discuss the problems men face. Which is such a shame, because it solves neither problem, and just serves to piss people off.
So now that I’ve engaged you, and said the thing those people weren’t saying, someone (possibly multiple someones) are going to try and fight me. I’m going to try and ignore them, but I have ADHD, so we’ll see what happens.
They have moved to a dedicated website now.
I dunno, huge leopards ate my face vibes from people like this.
They keep putting their faith in shitty males then act all surprised when the males turn out to be shit.
I’d wager all the good males in her life were too “dorky” or “unpopular” for her to give them the time of day.
That last paragraph in particular reads like a parody of incel thought.
You may be a “nice guy” if…
It’s sad how much you people have been conditioned to ignore the truth whenever it’s something someone else doesn’t like.
You may also be conditioned. Conditioned to think you would treat a woman exceptionally well, yet you harbor a subconscious misogyny. There are many cases where the “dorky” and “unpopular” guy gets a chance, the woman behaves in a way that doesn’t meet his standards, and he becomes abusive.
No, I’m a complete asshole and women love me for it.
I always feel bad for the nice guys who get to watch from the sidelines.
i was going to say the same thing, that is like the creepy thing a guy can say to a girl they want interact with. nice guy are not nice to a girl. and many woman can smell the desperation of incels so they stay away from them too.
sniff
Dude, take a shower, I can smell your incel ass through the internet
Nice victim-blaming, creep.
At some point, people have to take responsibility for their actions. Otherwise they’re just being treated like children.
You don’t think this woman should be treated like a child, do you?
What actions should she take responsibility for? And why is your first response to attack her over the people causing her harm?
No one has nudes of me because…I don’t take nudes or give them to others. It’s that easy.
Not unlike what I said to my children (all sons), “If you are having sex and not taking an active role in contraceptives, then you are saying you’re fine with your partner deciding to have children.” If you give out nudes, then you have explicitly decided to give that person the option to distribute them. This isn’t a statement of legality, but a statement of reality.
They keep putting their faith in shitty males then act all surprised when the males turn out to be shit.
And I bet you’re a nice guy
theres a reason why woman go after guys like that and not like “nice guy like you” first of all nice guy always codeward for acting like a creepy stalker.
a shitty or dumb guy probably has more personality, than “nice guys”. Also there is something for everyone dont down yourself, and people like incels thinking they “undatabale”. even 2 shitty people can date and marry and have kids, 1 woman and 1guy both can be bad people but still date.
Yeah how dare she get her personal photos spread across the internet and get sexually harassed!
This is the most incel take and just kind of proves her point
You’d have a point if she didn’t willingly give the pictures up to the shitty male that shared them.
I guess it’s also the fault of the victims of abusive relationships then? A man getting abused by his wife or girlfriend should have just not gotten with her?
The point is you can’t know what someone’s like right away, sometimes not for a long while into a relationship.
And again, why are you blaming her and the person sharing the photos?
And you would have a point if the man was an openly shitty person. For all you knew this was an otherwise respectable dude who still shared nudes of his partner. You can’t always tell shitty dudes ahead of time. Sometimes you can only know them when they are being shitty dudes.
Instead, you don’t have a point, you’re just looking to blame the victim.
He doesn’t even have to be ‘openly shitty.’ He just has to be ‘average’ or ‘typical’ and that should be enough to set off alarm bells because the current dating landscape rewards shitty males while punishing good ones.
It’s a cultural problem. I’m not going to give the average male the benefit of the doubt because most average males I’ve come across in my life fall into the category of ‘shitbag womanizer.’
We need to stop enabling them and start educating people on how to make better decisions on who they associate with.
And also start educating the average, shitbag womanizer males to not be that. We could teach them to be normal.
We shouldn’t expect bad people to do the right thing because otherwise they wouldn’t be bad people. Do you honestly believe this person didn’t know what he was doing when he did it? Of course he did, he just didn’t care.
I know you like living in a fantasy land, but in the real world there are plenty of horrible people that only see others as stepping stones to get what they want. It’s not the world I want to live in, but I would be willfully ignorant if I did not accept it.
You think the woman can change to be more responsible…
but you don’t think the man can change to be less irritating.Pulido, if you don’t believe bad people can change, why bother with a society that keeps prisoners at all? Why not just kill them?
You either didn’t read the article or have a definition of consent that honestly worries me:
The most lasting repercussions from that period stemmed from her modelling agency’s requirement to provide a weekly selfie. In a forerunner to OnlyFans, her agency ran a website that gave private content to subscribers.
Around the same time, as a student and part-time model, someone she was dating took her photo while she slept and posted it on his mates’ group chat.
But honestly that is somewhat besides the point. Even if she would have made the photos without any outside pressure and full consent that does not give anyone the right to distribute them against her wishes.
If I go to the bank and put my money into my a savings account I am not to blame if they turn around, use it to gamble and lose it all. I never agreed for them to use it in such a fashion even though I agreed for them to use it and it is not something I should have to expect from a bank.
does not give anyone the right to distribute them against her wishes.
You’re right, it doesn’t give them the right. Did you think I was implying that it did? You might want to brush up on your reading comprehension if that’s the case.
ITT: incels whine about not getting laid.
i’m sure that’ll improve your chances and make women respect you. lol. losers.
EDIT: i’d also love to point out that i was single briefly about 5 years ago (pre pandemic) and had no problem getting laid. it was like it had never been easier. i think most young men are just pathetic.
You just kind of come across as a dick in a different way here.
my online persona is very much an asshole. i think most people suck and i’m not trying to make any friends. i have plenty IRL, and most of them think very highly of me.
Well, I applaud your intellectual honesty, at least, even if I question your priorities.
As a middle-aged man, I agree that there are some completely shitty men (loosely) out there. A real man should be compassionate, caring, protective when wanted, supportive when needed, and should never do the absolute scum things this poor woman experienced. This is on fathers (mostly) and mothers to teach their sons what it means to be respectful to everyone around them, not just women but men as well. Fathers need to model the behavior so their sons don’t grow up to be terrible humans. It is on parents to address online safety. It’s uncomfortable to do this but really, really needed. As far as the man sex culture, I’m not sure that is a fair statement. That would be like saying a woman sex culture. From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
Not always but the exceptions (or as close to exceptions as generalizations can ever get you anyway) are usually cases where the stereotypical behavior is entangled deeply with the very definition of the group, e.g. the vast majority of kids of rich parents can’t understand the struggles of being poor.
I understand what you’re saying, what I meant was every time i got to the point where I had a preconceived idea about a group of people, I was proven that I was wrong. There are always exceptions - that is my point.
The thing is most of these dudes are highly desired and taken already so what you get on tinder rotation is absolutely not that.
It’s insane to me that the greatest threat to women is dating men. Who the hell is raising these guys? Even in my worst days I never blamed women for my dating problems - I blamed myself. Therapy helped with that problem though. But the motives of mass misogyny are just opaque to me. Sort your shit guys, don’t be a bastard.
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A random sub-reddit doesn’t represent any significant portion of “men,” as a class.
Yes, because the solution to misogynistic chauvinism is misandronistic chauvinism. Brilliant thinking… That’ll alter things for the better.
I can’t comprehend how people can make such a statement when the same logic applied to race instead of gender would make them (righteously) scream bloody racism.
I’m not responsible for the actions of someone who has the same genitals as me, no more than someone with the same skin color.
Ironically that poster is an Israel supporter. By their own logic every Israeli should be victim of default “suspicion” and be treated like an IDF war criminal, since everyone has the “potential” to be one.
Actually, this argument would be even more compelling since Israel does have elections and you can emigrate/renounce to your citizenship, both not possible in case of manhood.
It’s bizarre that someone could come up with such a poor argument that ultimately boils down to: “people should be accountable for the actions of other people in the same demographic”, without realising there are tons of way you can divide people in demographics.
“people should be accountable for the actions of other people in the same demographic”,
Sudneo! Answer these questions:
Do you agree that stalking women is bad behavior?
If you discovered a person who was stalking a woman, would you seek to intervene?
Don’t yadda-yadda about what the argument was to me—I don’t care. I want the answers to these two questions.
- Yes
- Generally yes, but it depends. If I feel like my intervention can actually be useful, sure. For example, if anybody in my acquaintances would be doing that or be a victim of that. “Intervene” also would most likely be reporting or providing shelter, I am not Batman.
Note that both the answers are independent on whether the stalker is a man or not.
Perfect.
As an allegedly misandrist, man-feminist critical of Men’s culture broadly, I am telling you this: these are the only two things you need to believe in.
I am tasking you with the responsibility of simply wanting a better society. If you see any person being harassed or chauvenistic or socially ignored because they’re not “in the club,” man or woman, and no matter the debate on which demographics tend to do what more often—if you have the heroic urge to help someone, that’s all you need.
This might sound a bit like I’m asking you to do something you already do, but if that’s true, that’s even better! A lot of people out there think of themselves as heroes but are easily swept away from the call to action by things like the bystander effect or simply not wanting to rock the boat. I believe in your ability to stand up and help people.
Also, I am surprised by your straightforwardness. I appreciate that, lol. :)
You’re right but the problem lies in not even being able to have this conversation online without the mobbing
You have the right to say sexist shit. And we have the right to call you out for it.
Look, you want to vent because there are problematic men, go ahead. You have to complain because there are aspects of male culture that enable such men, go ahead.
But the moment you attack a whole group for the actions of a few, just because of physical similarities you are no better than a racist and I will call you for it.
That’s not how racism works. The group in power at the top of the hedgemony that subjugates other groups doesn’t get to claim victim status when they’re asked to self reflect.
No. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race. Being part of a group that is generally a target doesn’t excuse your own behavior and give a blank card for your own prejudices.
We are ALL grown-ups. Act like it. Asking someone to be aware of their own privilege is not the same as telling someone they’re inherently guilty to the genitals or skin color they were born with, regardless of their own actions. That is NOT “being asked to self-reflect” as you put it. That is simply prejudice and you will be called out on it. The same way I will call-out a cat-calling man, a man-hating woman or a raging racist, because to me you are all the same.
Yes, because “men” is such a stringent definition for a hedgemonic class. Half the population on earth, across different social statuses, nationalities, wealth, race, age, and so on. Honestly, claiming this is the “group in power” is absurd.
A completely poor analysis, what there is to reflect on?
They are not right, they are sexist as fuck
If all men are responsible for the shitty men because we have the capacity to be that way - then all women are responsible for the shitty things women do and they owe me an apology and better treatment before they’ll get anything from me
Screenshotting this for the next time some dipshit tries to tell me people don’t say shit like this
Post the screenshot
If men want to get rid of the collective suspicions they need to act to prevent their own sexism and misogyny and those of other men!
I’m fine with the collective suspicion, since I know that (a) the suspicions are misplaced for me personally, and this will be obvious to anyone spending any time around me, and (b) because this is a dominant attitude only among women who are chronically online, who I wouldn’t want to spend time with anyway.
So, sorry, your shame-blackmail won’t work on me. If you are going to other me, putting me on the other “side”, then please provide a reason for helping you that will benefit me personally. After all, why would I want to help someone who sees me as an enemy?
because at least all men share the potential to act out problematic gender roles
Everyone (literally) has the potential to act out problematic gender roles, women included.
protect other men from female criticism because “they are different”
This sentence is legit incoherent. If a criticism doesn’t apply to someone, protecting against said criticism is quite literally preventing discrimination.
If men want to get rid of the collective suspicions
Or maybe we can criticize unfair collective suspicion in the same way summary judgments based on other categories are crticizised. I really can’t see how this argument does not lead to racism, sexism, etc. Being a man is not being part of a club, you don’t decide to join, you don’t subscribe to any value, you don’t have a steering committee that decides how “manhood” is by vote. Why tf anybody should be responsible to change a group that they are part of simply for biological reasons?
To be honest I’ve lost interest in anything but one nighters and I’m a guy every time I’ve got into a serious thing I got cheated on eventually.
So yeah works both ways I guess.
There are some pretty awful takes in these replies. It seems a fair number of men here at least vacation near the “manosphere”.
It’s like she hasn’t ever considered that there are men that don’t even know it’s happening.
But sure, yeah - I’m totally patting wannabe rapists on the back. I won’t be reading misandry as a response to misogyny.
As I read this, she just tries to tell people, both men and women, about her experience. It’s not an uncommon experience either unfortunately. Isn’t that how men will get to ”know it’s happening”?
I know the initial reaction of feeling a bit hurt when someone makes broad statements about men, I’ve been there. But the more posts like hers I read, the more I understand the problem.
There’s 9 billion people and 80% of them are on the internet. Anything you want to imagine is happening in large numbers on the internet, and if you search hard enough you’ll find it.
Confirmation bias is indeed a problem, but that’s all this problem is. Don’t go looking for rape roleplay if you don’t want that.
Have you talked to women about their experiences? I challenge you to find a single woman that has not been sexually harassed by a man.
That’s nice and all, but given most men don’t sexually assault people it’s a little like treating all women as cheaters because you got cheated on, or all black people as thieves because you had an unfortunate encounter.
Sexism is sexism regardless of how you frame it.
The difference here is the frequency with all of these things. It’s easy to find a man that hasn’t been cheated on by a woman. It’s easy to find someone that hasn’t been robbed (by anyone, let alone by a black man or woman). I am not joking that I don’t think I could find a woman that hasn’t, at minimum, been sexually harassed by a man, if not assaulted.
You say “if you search hard enough you’ll find it” except one doesn’t have to search for this issue. It’s simply everywhere. Men sexually harassing women is literally everywhere. You are dismissing their evidence by suggesting “of course you can find that somewhere” suggesting the evidence they gave was too specific. But yet most porn sites are FILLED with problematic content and ads, each more specific than the next. So it’s not just about this specific “rape roleplay” scenario, it’s about all of the countless scenarios widespread across the internet.
Recognizing a systematic issue is not sexism. Trying to minimize its prevalence by saying “not all men” is problematic. And not something I would expect with the username of “superniceperson”
Again, if we’re going to include any single type of incident over the life of a person, and then start to discriminate on the common perpetrator, you end up with bigotry regardless of that incident Or intent.
Its not ‘not all men’ it’s ‘not even a third of men.’ more black people as a percentage of total black people have assaulted someone than the percentage of men that have sexually assaulted someone, so we should look into profiling black people for violence and work to correct the systemic issues that causes black people to be violent, right?
There’s a right way to go about solving the problems you’re discussing, and they are very real problems, but becoming a pathetic bigot is not the way to go.
Victimization does not give you the right of discrimination based on immutable characteristics, and you are objectively a bad person if you think otherwise. There aren’t any valid exceptions to this, and accepting this behavior leads to absolute pieces of shit like jk Rowling.
Your biggest problem is you are reading “not all men” as a literal. Not everything has to be taken literally. Language absolutely can work that way, and very often does. When a woman talks about the countless men that have harassed her, and she says “men disgust me” and your response to that is “not all men disgust you, right” then you have completely missed the point. She is conveying the hurt that has fell upon her by many men, and that is the part that should be addressed. Not the technicalities of who she is talking about exactly. And it is absolutely incorrect if your response to that was to call her a bigot or an objectively bad person.
Comparing the black race to sexist men is also a terrible comparison. Black people have historically been oppressed. There is countless literature on just the problems black men and women have faced in the last 50 years. The systematic issues with race are an entirely different beast, and not at all comparable to the issue with men.
Men have historically been the oppressors. There is no systematic oppression they’re battling. They are the ones with the majority of the power. They are simply continuing to abuse those they either have power over, or feel they have power over.
So again, don’t get hyperfixated on this “not all men” because even when people make a generalized statement, they are not talking about LITERALLY ALL MEN, they are talking about a problem they’ve experienced enough from one common group that they are able to widely complain about it. If you went day after day of constant cat calling, womanizing, discrimination, dick picks, mansplaining, and god knows what else women have to deal with, you might be saying things like that too. I don’t know if it’s a man thing, or if some people that take these things super literally have diagnosed or undiagnosed autism, or what ever else, but they (myself included at one point) seem to not be able to understand the fact that generalized statements aren’t talking about everyone but a common issue they have.
I get it, you want them to say “Some men” or might even be fine with them saying “most men” but that isn’t going to happen when someone is fed up with the treatment they’ve faced from men. They’re fed up with the treatment they’ve faced their entire lives, and they’re saying something about it. That is not bigotry. Period.
