Ohh, dashes.
Is there an ISO standard for how to say, “I don’t agree with a very specific aspect of your politics, or a specific statement one of your political heroes made, for a very specific reason, but I’m not declaring myself at the extreme horrible kitten-eating end of whatever political spectrum you live in.”
“Policies that destroy the biosphere are discouraged.” — ISO-0000
I’m working in an international company with colleagues around the world. To avoid confusion, I switched to using this format:
27-FEB-2013
I deal with a lot of old records and boy I really prefer iso when you have to look at a lot of dates and things are in all different years, it’s helpful. Have you tried ISO? I also do a lot of international work and haven’t heard complaints about it being confusing.
I honestly prefer ISO, but as soon as a US colleague is involved, things get messy. That’s my experience from the last 10 years or so.
There are several people in the comments saying they have to use 27 Feb 2013 because they work with people all over the world. I’m really confused - what does that solve that 2013-02-13 does not? I know that not every language spells months the English way so “Dec” or “May” aren’t universal. Is there some country that regularly puts year day month that would break using ISO 8601 or RFC 3339?
When someone asks you what date it is, no one says it’s 2025 May 5th. We all know what year it is, and we all know what month we are in. It’s the day component that is usually the unknown.
That’s locality of reference, though, similar to how you can say “here” or “there” for spatial coordinates. Everybody is aware of the year and month, so you omit it as given. The order of significance is still year, month, day.
Imagine if a harried time traveler jumped out of their time machine and asked you the date. Would it make sense to say, “Why, it’s the 1st.” (Or more possible, if a friend awoke from a coma.) If you ask somebody when they were born, most people will give the year at minimum. Of course, there are some weirdos out there, and you recognize them when you ask when they were born, and they say, “on a Tuesday.” Same for the date of the Norman invasion of Great Britain. If you don’t already have some sense of history, then knowing it happened about the 20th isn’t very edifying.
we all know what month we are in
Literally had two coworkers today that did not realize it was May
Guilty of that myself this very day. I did it a very spectacular way too. Some coworkers came up to me and said “man, April was a busy month for you!” I boldly replied “and it ain’t even over yet!” I was promptly corrected.
Oh, yeah, guess it is.
Writing dates is usually in order to keep track for the future, when the year and month may be different.
It solves the familiarity problem, when getting somebody to do something by a date they readily understand at a glance takes precedence over making everybody in the world change a lifelong habit.
I think learning all abbreviations for different months in different languages is more complicated than just learning that the time is sorted from largest to smallest unit.
No! It’s the other way around, from largest to smallest is a mess and it makes no sense
So true, bestie! That’s why all the clocks in my house are formatted ss:mm:hh
I know, right! I’ve been campaigning for this for everyday numbers. For example, twenty seven should be written smallest first: 72. Likewise this year is 5202, and next year 6202. That way no-one’s going to be confused at all.
What you said is stupid
If you name files or other data with ISO 8601 then they’re always sorted chronologically when you go largest to smallest.
27 Feb 2013 is unambiguous- regardless of where you’re from or how you write your dates, you can’t confuse 2013 for the month or day, you can’t confuse Feb for a day or week, and if you can’t figure 27 out, then we have bigger problems!
27 Feb is no more or less ambiguous than 02-27. The problems are when you choose a proper example, like 03/02
I used to work for a company that agreed with you, well at least some clown in management did. Even though it was an Australian company, at least part of the problem was we had an office in Manila, and they speak “American English” which seemed to include the awful date system too. We dealt with a lot of files being issued to clients / received from vendors etc. Because the “official” system used those fucked up dates, everyone ran their own secondary sets of data folders in / out with everything done in ISO dates so you could actually sort it properly.
Which I was the justification used when my work decided to use 2025-May-01.
It’s close enough to the iso date that nobody will be confused but with that 1 extra layer of security blanket to separate months and days.
Of course, that does ruin sorting, so I think it was a bit silly, nobody has ever used yyyymmdd so it’s all a bit theoretical to me.
2013-02-27 is also unambiguous unless you’re aware of a country that uses year day month, is not?
2013-02-27 is also unambiguous.
Hey what’s today’s date?
It’s 2025 -
No like the DAY?
Yeah, it’s 2025, 02 -
Not the month, the day - What’s today’s actual date?
Like I was saying, if you’d let me finish, “2025 - 02 - 27”
I’m mostly joking, but when it comes to info about dates, I think the most evctive format it one that organizes the information within a heirachy that provides follow up answers.
Formatting dates as day / month / year does just that. Provides the day it is, followed by the month and year as that is the order that information is usually needed in.
I find providing the year first (or month) is much more ambiguous as neither are the day the actual date falls on.
Time travelers would have to endure a few less awkward moments though.
If you need to ask for the current date so often, I suggest getting a watch. (not sure if joking vs predisposed for this part)
If you’re asking so often about recent things then, yes, hearing the redundant parts out loud is only irksome because they’ve already been delivered to you (by yourself).
On the other hand, if you’re asking someone when an arbitrary event happened (e.g. when reminiscing), having the year first quickens context.
We need to get rid of the month/day and just refer to days by number. Today is day 121 in the year 2025, it’s super clear.
Why bother with years, it’s day 1,456,7834
That’s an interesting epoch. Almost, but not quite, 40,000 years ago
Wow, what a relatable use-case…
I was said that western mindset goes from small scale to larger scale, like 02-05-2025. Hmm, maybe that’s West vs East propaganda material?
Counterpoint: What you say applies in daily life, not when querying an archive of any kind. Year-month-day is the natural sorting order if the question is “which file/folder/column in the spreadsheet is the one I need?” In which case you narrow it down to first the year, then the month, then the day.
I started using YYYY-MM-DD to name files and directories once I noticed that they then became automatically sorted chronologically when I sort the containing directory alphabetically by file name.
2013-02-03 though. Someone would fuck it up
Disregard ISO8601. Acquire RFC3339. You can leave off the T if you want to, or replace Z with
+00:00.with ISO 8601:
Sure, how about 2018-W06-1? Or 2018-036?
ISO 8601 contains way too many obscure formats. RFC 3339 is pretty much a subset and defines only sensible ones. It also allows 2018-02-05 08:02:43-00:00 (no T and explicitly specifying no timezone)
Acquiring the document (legally) to ensure compliance for ISO 8601 is relatively expensive for a single person (~$200 USD), while RFC 3339 is accessible for free.
As long as the month comes before the day I can get behind it.
I see he paid the Internet Cat Tax
27.2.2013 is fine for handwriting on paper
Which month is 27?
That’s what we Europeans call a “petty answer to the disgrace that is Amarican military time” (not the be confused with regular Amarican time and dates, which don’t allow overflow, as far as I’m aware). The date described above is clearly “the second of March, 2015” or 2015-03-02.
Smarch2: Electric Boogaloo
The one after the 26th.
For your example, maybe. If someone writes 8/3/2012, you don’t know which is month/day. And if they shorten it to 08/03/12 you literally can’t even conclusively determine the year, much less the month or day…
8/3/2012
You do. 8th of Feb in the entire civilised world and possibly 3rd of something in Trumpistan.
8/3/2012
8th of Feb
Feb
You uh… you sure about that?
March
Why should I?
@[email protected] this might be applicable to the farside as well
Do you mean the post titles? I’ve been using the same format as was used since before I took over posting, but if people want ISO format that works for me
I’m all for ISO format. I can’t imagine anyone having objections.
Posting in ISO format now, we’ll see if there’s any objections
In the last company I work for, the department was created from zero, and my boss just let me take all the technical decisions so from the begging everything was wrote in ISO-8601. When I left it was just the way it was, if you try to use any other date format anywhere something is going to give you an error.
Rich is right, since this is the date format that sorts correctly in filenames.
Won’t be true after 9999-12-31, however.
If humanity survives until then, we can implement 9-digit dates and delay the problem until Y100K.
If I, my software, or my data last this long, I will have nearly 8000 years to resolve it. Which is to say, the year 9998 is going to get busy.
natural sort ftw
Oh no! The Y10K bug!
Can’t wait for the Y40k bug, when Tyranids begin to infect our brains.
Bold of you to assume there isn’t already a genestealer cult on Terra. Washington specifically.
That…would explain a lot
I’d be curious to see a sorting algorithm that doesn’t handle YYYYY-MM-DD with YYYY-MM-DD properly. If you drop the dashes you still get a proper numeric order. If you sort by component, you still get the proper order. Maybe a string sort wouldn’t? Off the top of my head the languages I’m thinking either put longer strings later, giving us the proper order, or could put 1YYYY- ahead of 1YYY-M so maybe string sorting is the only one that’s out.
Lexical sorting (string sorting/alphabetical order sorting) is what I believe they were referring to when talking about file names.
The fact that you don’t have to do any parsing of the string at all, just do a straight character-by-character alphabetical sort, and they will be sorted by date, is a great benifit of this date scheme. That means in situations where no special parsing is set up (eg, in a File Explorer windows showing a folders contents sorted alphabetically) or where your string isn’t strictly date only (eg, a file name format such as ‘2025-05-02 - Project 3.pdf’) you can still have everything sorted by date just by sorting alphabetically.
Its this benifit that is lost when rolling over to 5-digit years.
It’s an easy fix at least, just check if you’re comparing numbers on both sides and switch to a simple numerical sort.
I think Windows used to get this wrong, but it was fixed so long ago that I’m not even sure now.
I bet you could make a one liner to rename files with YYYY-MM-DD to 0YYYY-MM-DD fairly easily. Not a problem.
Can be solved with a small shellscript adding a leading zero to all filenames with the format.
Who’s Rich? Did you mean Randall?
…dammit, the only comics I read are XKCD and OOTS and I done fucked up.
How can you sleep on Oglaf
The good ones tend to filter their way out.
(I do also read whatever John Allison is currently working on.)
Banished to back in time to hang with Ozy and Millie
And it is easily extensible to YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss to include the time of day
Are you an obsidian user?
I feel called out and I’m hiding in the bushes reading comments.
It’s called feeling seen and finding you’re not alone. Do you type "# " while screen sharing in work apps to no avail and the chagrin of colleagues? It’s okay. Me too.
Haha yep, you caught me. I’m a fan of the unique note feature
I’ve never met a fellow Templatr in the wild lol
My daily note broke and my life fell apart for a minute.
Have you also spent months building your Data Capture Workflow mermaid.js? 😅😬
Not quite months, but definitely weeks 😂 Obsidian can be such a rabbit hole. If I tweak that last template one more time, then I’ll finally be done, I swear!
So I’m like 80% done with my setup. Mostly focused on routine and habit templates, homepage wiki for pkm etc… between the plugins and css, no matter which device I’m on, it’s the slowest app I’ve ever used. This is why I pushed my old setup and started over clean with more knowledge. I don’t know how to get the customization I want without insane unusable lag
Omg thank you!! Everyone sees my notes thinks I’m crazy for obsessing… It’s the correct fucking sort!
I regularly work with Americans, Canadians, and Europeans. So many times each group defaults to their own format and mistakes occur I gave up on all the formats listed by OP. If i have to write a date in correspondence its like: Feb 27th 2013. No ambiguity. No one has ever challenged me on it either. It is universally understood.
I was introduced to ISO 8601 in the US military. Yay standardization!
Jokes on you, I can’t fucking rember which English month is which. April, May, July and Autum is just a grey mass to me.
Autumn is a season lol
I think you mean August.
September, October, November and December are easy to remember because they’re Roman numbers. 7-10 But two off because at some point they added July and August to honor Julius Augustus. So “month seven” is the 9th month.
Honestly I do remember some months, like starting and ending of the year. I don’t encounter English month names on a regular enough basis to remember their order and my month names in no way relate to English ones.
So anything after February and before August I have to google each time I encounter them.
It doesn’t help that we don’t even have month abbreviations like English does (Jan, Feb, etc.).
You meant 27th Feb 2013, right? It is utterly moronic to have day in the middle irrespectively if you start with or finish on the year.
I assume it depends on geographical region, but I’ve never heard someone say out loud “27th of February, 2013.” It’s always “February 27th, 2013.” Writing it down like that could be easier to parse for people who are used to that format
Let me guess - you are a USian?
No, I’m American
I want to get ahead of this debate, and point out that a) “American” as a demonym for literally anyone in the western hemisphere is largely useless, b) the USA is the only country which includes “America” in its name, and c) USian is not more precise because there are two countries with United States in their name.
No, I’m American. It looks like you started writing this comment before I made the edit to mine, so I’ll go ahead and copy/paste it here
a) “American” as a demonym for literally anyone in the western hemisphere is largely useless, b) the USA is the only country which includes “America” in its name, and c) USian is not more precise because there are two countries with United States in their name.
So, you are a USian. I thought so. I never ever heard someone saying “February 27th 2018”, I think only USians do that. Everywhere else it is 27th of February 2018 which is logical.
You meant 27th Feb 2013, right?
Does it matter anymore with this format? You figured out the exact day, month, and year irrespective of the order.
Does it matter anymore
Possibly just the matter of logic.
It’s not about understanding. It’s about sorting,
Everybody understand both notations, but if you use it for filenames sorting is important. Natural sorting order is an important feature that should be considered.
day month year is just stupid in that regard. Not only does the of the month depend on the language, but also if sorted you get the first of every month grouped together.
“Moronic” before and now “stupid”. Folks are very passionate about their date formats.
If you’re listing dates, then using a sortable format is ideal. But if you’re just referencing one in the middle of a correspondence, it’s best to use whatever format the recipient is most familiar with. No one is sorting emails by a date given in the third paragraph
I prefer 27 Feb 2013, it’s how my work writes dates.
My biggest point of professional pride was the time my boss sent a mass group text to all his employees asking them to format dates the way I do
He didn’t say it was the format I used, so I didn’t speak up and say “it’s actually ISO-8601,” because I assume my coworkers who were used to writing things like “February 27 8:00-4:45” rather than “2013-02-27 8:00-4:45 (8:45)” may stab me
I prefer 27. Feb. 2013
I prefer 13 Feb 27
That’s not very onionized of you
I agree with the ISO approach, but unfortunately without mainstream adoption in a majority of countries it’s just another standard.
My goodness, some of the comments in here must come from people who thought that those writing the standard were morons who did no research.
I don’t think they’re morons…just slaves to convention and compatibility. Not many ways to get away from that and justify it.
It’s the only way.
This is the way.
There is still confusion to be had before 1582-11-29
