He’s talking about an MBA, not an actual degree.
I remember once borrowing a friend’s MBA textbook to see what it was all about. I opened to a random page which turned out to be in a chapter on negotiating strategies. There was an offset bit of text that read “your skill at negotiating will affect the outcome of the negotiations.”
I mean, the textbook wasn’t wrong…
It should be DUH rather than MBA. Maybe “Doctorate of Unabashed Hyperbole”.
Video game loading screen tips but textbook form.
“Shoot the bad guys before they shoot you.”
Had to go find a Table of Contents for an MBA textbook
For this thread start at chapter 18
LOL “Leading from the Middle”. AKA “Sucking Up and Punching Down”.
I was a hiring manager in aerospace for decades. We for sure checked transcripts before a start date.
I also just don’t get people who lie on their resumes. That would cause me so much anxiety. Even for things I have training or experience with, I always worry people are going to expect me to be more proficient than I am. I had I guy put that he was fluent in a computer language that I’m not sure he’d ever seen, so everyone was always frustrated with him and he eventually got laid off.
Dunning-Kruger perhaps. You sound like me. I have a master in thermodynamics and 20 years in the field of energetic materials, but I know that there are lots of stuff I don’t know nearly enough about.
I think it’s super dependent on the industry and you as a person.
I used to have a fake degree on my resume and I attribute a decent amount of my career success to that. But I am in IT where experience is a lot more important and there’s a lot less risk than engineering haha.
But it was just some random bachelors degree from a community college in my home town. I would explain it away as “just some online BS program so I would have a degree on my resume” and that was really all the background checking anyone did. I’m also very charismatic, had a bunch of professional references, and a couple certs so that helps a ton
I don’t have it on my resume anymore because I’m at a point in my career where it just frankly doesn’t matter, but back when I was just a baby help desk tech it genuinely got me a couple incredible opportunities. I didn’t feel bad because the hiring process is such nonsense and employers made candidates jump through so many hoops I just figured it was fair. They
liecreatively explain benefits and pay, so we canliecreatively explain our history.I had a 25-year career as a programmer. Not once did I ever have a company I worked for verify my academic or employment histories or even contact my references. I could have put down anything I wanted and it wouldn’t have made the slightest difference - my continuing employment was based on my ability to actually do shit.
I’m now a school bus driver and they checked out everything. And of course threw in drug testing and a criminal background check for good measure.
The school bus thing makes sense.
I’m pretty sure people lie on resumes because you’re more likely to actually get a response that way, rather than using whatever credentials you actually have.
Well sure, of course. I’m more likely to hire a painter to paint my house if he says he’s been in business 20 years, but I’m going to be pissed off it turns out in his first job and he’s bad at it.
That’s the whole thing about “fake it till you make it,” though. You fake it to get your foot in the door, pray like a mother fucker you can actually do the job, and pray like a mother fucker you keep the job. I don’t know how folks actually make it like that, but, hey… In the current dark times, gotta do what you gotta do.
Wouldn’t be worth the anxiety for me.
On the other hand, I’ve long been a proponent of the above board fake it till you make it approach. There were many, many times in my career that my boss needed something done and I told him I could probably figure it out if he keeps his expectations low. Got to do a lot of interesting things that way and learned some really cool stuff.
And every promotion was like that. They knew all of my experience, but were putting me in a new position. Managing people for the first time is always a fake it till you make it situation.
This, I was also a hiring manager in sciencey fields. We also verified education, even with a robust job history. I share the same sentiment and could not embellish on my resume because it’s pretty hard to lie about technical expertise in science and engineering. Also, the labs I’ve worked in have very expensive instruments, not a good idea to ‘wing it’ with those things.
My partner’s dad lied on his resume long ago and held that job for years before anyone checked.
The reason he lied was because he knew he could do the job because he had enormous experience (I’m not sure what it was something related to agriculture and he had grown up farming) but the job required a degree. He did the job well.
He is an argumentative person though and I guess he finally pissed off the wrong guy who finally looked into his background and got him fired.
Why the fuck would they fire somebody who did the job well for years?
You piss off the wrong person, it doesn’t matter how good you are at your job. I can also say from personal experience, he is not an easy person to get along with.
I guess some businesses and industries check more than others. Where I worked, you had to submit your transcripts, plus they did background checks for criminal records.
The DMs have been flowing in … from scammers.
indian ones. im not asking for scientist level listings, but they kept sending it. i had to end up blocking the job sites after that.
Career pro-tip: Lie on your resume!
I’ll be honest that’s what I’ve done. But they weren’t lies of stuff I can’t do. More like “oh I made this small coding project”, “I’ve replaced phone screens before”, “I know how to debug code”
Yeah; those are reasonable. Not overly-checkable stuff like the school you went to and degree you obtained.
It’s why I’m stuck in a factory. I just don’t have it in me to bullshit/lie. I have a friend who worked his way into his career by saying whatever he needed to say and he makes 3x my salary.
I wish I had no morals or anxiety…
Aww
Hey silver lining though?
You’re not gonna get fired and be embarrassed in ten years then go broke and lose your property and be unhireable etc etc etc
There was a US story or few too - someone goes back and checks ancient claims, then it’s all bad
I make higher than the median salary working at a factory. I left a job that required a college degree and professional licence that payed less than what I do now. Higher education requirements doesn’t always mean higher pay. You might just need to find a unionized factory. The lowest wage at my workplace is $25/hr (CAD). Local minimum wage is $17.20/hr and median wage is $21.83/hr.
unionize and try to switch workplaces every year to a higher paying one.
Um, if you switch workplaces you switch unions.
Depends if your union is regional or just your workplace.
Most of the manufacturing unions in my area are just that, the area. All the trade unions are as well, and probably the teachers union too.
I think the point is to unionize every company
That’s kinda the spot I’m at now, just no union. I’m “stuck” in that the wage isn’t horrendous for my background, but the area I live in is so expensive that it kinda evens out. If I want any kind of savings I need to stay in this garage I rent.
I’ve wanted to make a move for the last 5 years, but COVID came along so i waited it out, then it was “omg recession is coming, recession is coming!” So I waited it out. Now we’re “blessed” with the Mango Mussolini who is hell bent on destroying the economy so again I feel like the only smart thing to do is wait it out…
The way I see it is that they’re looking to exploit me for as much as they can get, so I have no obligation to treat them with any more respect than that. I don’t lie, but I have no problem taking a single instance where I worked next to a couple newbies for an hour and gave them pointers and turning it into “trained and oversaw new hires to ensure proper workflow protocol” on my resume.
Yeah. Embellishing the truth is a much better strategy for job seeking.
Maybe I should lie about being a sous chef so I can work at a Antarctica base as a chef…
i hate working with people like this
you can fool HR but not your coworkers for long and I sure as fuck don’t want to carry the new guy moreso if he’s making more than me
Carry the new guy? If you’re lying on your resume to say you have skills that you don’t really have, then you’re not doing it right. You’re supposed to figure out what your skills actually are, then embellish your resume to make those skills shine on paper. I’ve never had anything but glowing reviews from my employers because I made sure to apply for jobs that suited my skills, and formatted my resume to help me get hired. I’m good at training newbies, but my first employer didn’t trust me with that responsibility, so I embellished a bit on my resume to make sure my second employer trusted me enough to let me make use of that skill, and pay me accordingly.
No one checks. No one questions.
Any Fortune 500 company is going to check, particularly if you’re aiming for a job in upper management.
And if you’re working a government contract, you’re almost certainly going to get a background check for any kind of security clearance.
And if you’re working a government contract, you’re almost certainly going to get a background check for any kind of security clearance.
🥴
They dont, i work for one
Maybe yours doesn’t, but plenty do.
Source: have worked at multiple companies interviewing people who would have been promising candidates, but got bounced during the screening process.
Plenty of jobs outside of Fortune 500 garbage.
To be fair there’s a whole lot of wealthy people like Trump who bought their degree anyway
I had poor grades in university. But they were leagues ahead of Trump’s failures.
C’s get degrees
So do donors
Shi, I know many students that would just buy the work or answers.
し？
Donors get honors
They asked me how well I understood theoretical physics. I said I had a theoretical degree in physics. They said welcome aboard.
I see what you did there
They have concepts of a theory.
I have concepts of a plan
- Concepts of a salary.
You don’t need to lie on your resume for it to stand out and be impressive.
First, stop listing “duties” and generalized things for the role. As somebody that’s done a few hundred interviews, I quickly bin those resumes. I have a good understanding of what a related role’s duties are that would make you qualified for a role I’m interviewing for.
Your goal in a resume is to show the hiring team of what you can provide to the team/company if you are brought on board.
What you should do is keep track of you work successes and KPIs and periodically update your resume with those successes and metrics for that role. Got a top performer review status, log it. Increased sales for the department by some % for the year, log it. Delivered a highly complex & valuable project, log it.
If you do the above, I can have a good understanding of what you’re actually capable of and how you utilize the skills you have within a role.
Are you sure not including duties and what you actually did is recommended?
Like, “Software Engineer” could mean bloody anything if you don’t specify what you actually did. You could have been mindlessly doing minor Jira tickets and running import tools, or you could be architecting entire pieces of enterprise software.
Listing your successes, metrics, and accomplishments will drive home your actual work duties and capabilities.
If you’re listing the following, you’ve failed in writing a solid entry to tell me that you’re a bugfix and data import wizard:
- Utilized Jira to fix bugs.
- Used company import tools to move data between systems.
Instead, you could write entries like:
- Took ownership and closed x bug tickets over y months which was z% over the organizational goal.
- Created and documented a Workflow to speed up the process of importing data by x%, making me the go to person for company data imports.
I’m not saying to lie or embellish either. I’m saying that you need to think about how you market your skills for sale as a service. If I’m looking for somebody with those skills, the latter two bullet points are going to stand out a far lot better than the former.
It seems to be the standard requirement in the USA, like having a resumé rather than a CV. I’d rather not, but it is standard, here.
I live in the USA. I use the process I’ve described on my resume. I’ve also just landed a new job and started within the last month. When sending out resumes on my latest job search I had a 90% response rate, all for jobs I’d actually like to work at. The job I accepted was after the recruiter that reviewed my resume reached out to me to tell me the role I applied for had been filled but that they had another role that I’d be a fit for in the process of being written and wanted to get the ball rolling so I could be at the front of the interview process for it.
I’d say it’s “standard” because people were poorly trained on what to put on their resumes starting in high school and even college. I even used the “standard” before and struggled to land interviews early in my career. It wasn’t until about 15 years ago that I did a deep dive into resume writing and job searching techniques that I completely overhauled my resume and started actually getting call-backs/emails and interviews that would eventually wind up in landing jobs that I actually wanted.
Just because something is “standard” doesn’t mean it’s what we should be doing, or is the right way. The job market has changed over the years and ATSs reviewing resumes meant that people had to figure out how to get past those systems 20 years ago. As LLMs have been added to ATSs it’s only gotten harder to get past the initial gate with a resume drop.
A Kagi search for “resume accomplishments vs duties” will give you a plethora of sources discussing this from job seekers, HR professionals, recruiters, and even some university research.
Hi, thanks so much for that useful information. I don’t have kagi or any paid additional service. I’ll see what I can find, I do appreciate your letting me know!
So, what you’re saying is people should lie about work successes instead of degrees? Got it. Will do.
As with most things, if you are competent, a degree doesn’t really matter. The degree is just a shortcut, and even if it’s checked it’s no guarantee you are otherwise competent. You’re expected to have picked up competency during the time you got your degree.
So this probably works if you are otherwise competent, but if you’re not it’s just going to lead to increased scrutiny (Because hey, you should know these things) and if someone does end up checking up on you it’s a great way to get fired with cause. Depending on how tight knit your industry is that can still make things very hard for you.
And of course, once this becomes frequent enough, you’d be surprised how quickly checking will become the norm again.
Have you heard the story of Darth Brianna Wu the Wise?
She did that, except people found out later on.
Brianna Wu
Never known anything but I have seen the name. So I’ve skimmed her Wikipedia just now. So she was harassed during GamerGate. Is Pro-Israel and claims the left is letting down their Jewish allies. Had a few congressional bids.
Oh, I see her with something with Cenk and Rebellion PAC. Not gonna lie, I gave up on Cenk ages ago and it seems things haven’t gotten much better for him (especially lately with him and Ana apparently attacking the left?).
I’ve probably skimmed too fast but what specifically are you referring to? I see she didn’t get a full degree from the University of Mississippi.
There’s also a Dead Domain video, that goes into great detail of her other shenanigans, like lying about being a cis woman.
been meaning to watch that but I already hate Wu so I don’t know if I can take it. really like dead domain though. very cool person.
I mean in an age of overt transphobia, I can’t fault someone for hiding the fact. I do hate when people weaponize their own identity to attack others in the queer community
A while back on Lemmy, someone mentioned Hassan Piker. I finally got around to looking him up, today. What a wild read! Apparently he’s Cenk’s nephew.
My unpopular opinion (and I’ll eat the downvotes) is that CV fraudsters don’t get prosecuted nearly enough.
It’s not just faceless billionaire companies you’re fucking over, it’s the other candidates who actually put in the effort to become competent at the job you lied to get.
I’ll never get my head around the popularity of the idea that lying on a CV doesn’t make you a liar.
Job candidates didn’t start this war. Companies want ever more ludicrous requirements (so they’d have to interview fewer people), so the average CV expands to match it.
And while you may get caught with claiming to have a degree, you can certainly embellish the rest of it. Used an Excel spreadsheet? You’re now a data analyst. Dabbled in Access? Congratulations, you’re now an experienced database administrator.
And if you get found out and fired, so what? So did hundreds of people who did have all the qualifications and experience. You now have a bit more, so you know what not to do next time.
Take what you can from corporations, because they’re certainly trying to take all they can from you.
Used an Excel spreadsheet? You’re now a data analyst. Dabbled in Access? Congratulations, you’re now an experienced database administrator.
I feel personally attacked and simultaneously validated by your analysis.
When you are starting out in an hiring environment like this, you pretty much have to do this, but you should also be prepared to back it up.
25 years ago during a major tech downturn I said I had experience with C for my first programming job (I didn’t, but I knew others). Before I started I studied my ass off and learned it so I wouldn’t look like a fool on the job.
End result was that when I started, I knew C.
Don’t lie about stuff that is easy to verify like a degree from Harvard. That is just asking to be blackballed.
Lorne Lanning, the creator of Oddworld, did something similar with 3D animation back when that required super fucking expensive computers. He “ilegally” photocopied the manual of the software he was expected to know about, spent the night reading it, then, during the interview, did some bit of animation that amazed the interviewers.
I don’t recall the exact details, but you can get his account from his Ars Technica interview. Almost 3 hours long, but it’s a great listen
That’s actually pretty crazy. I could read a manual front to back twice but still look like a bumbling moron the first time I touch a piece of software.
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It’s not that unpopular of an opinion lol
Go take a look at the downvotes I got, versus the updoots that the people are getting by justifying it as “corporations bad, defrauding them good”
It’s a shame you have any upvotes at all. It’s a moral and ethical imperative to lie on your resume. Evening the playing field is not fraud. Your cutesy dismissive retort is inappropriate because corporations have all of the power, turning job hunting into a totally atomized activity. The recruitment process is fraudulent, not the attempt to remedy it.
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I mean, honestly, this shit won’t let up until the companies that hire them are fined. Advertising for such a requirement should carry with it the obligation to check. Would also cut down on those companies that demand such but won’t pay accordingly.
What’s the consequences of not lying on your resume? you can’t get a good job.
What’s the consequences of being caught lying on your resume? you lose your good job.
What’s the consequences of not getting caught? You get paid to do the job that didn’t require the degree to begin iwth.
The consequences are the same whether or not you do it. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks.
What’s the consequences of being caught lying on your resume? you lose your good job.
I used to work as a trade union officer representing people at disciplinaries. I’ve represented several people over the years who were sacked for lying on their CVs.
Not only did they lose their job, but they’ll get a “sacked for gross misconduct” reference from that employer making it much more difficult to get another job. Those in regulated roles also ended up with gross misconduct records with the regulator, making it essentially impossible to work in that field again.
So no, it’s not a risk free game.
You took a game theory course didn’t you? Cause yup!
What’s the consequences of not lying on your resume?
You pass your background check.
Harvard and other major schools make it fairly easy to vet graduates with a call to the registrar’s office. Most schools have electronic portals to handle the requests in bulk.
This is an extremely low bar for an HR department to pass.
Sure those are all well and good ideas. My wife works in HR and she’s yet to work at a company that calls the registrars office. They do criminal background checks all over, but rarely do they go beyond that. We’re in mass, so we’re entitled to a copy of our background check performed by the business, if you’re in a similar situation i’d recommend checking it out.
That being said, if you’re applying for a job you’re never gonna get an interview for (Director or Manager roles without an MBA or BS) then you have quite literally nothing but your time to lose.
The most in-depth background check I’ve received was a bank which actually ran a credit report. I later overheard the HR ladies talking about “y’know, why do we do that? We don’t even make hiring decisions based on the results of the credit reports…”
I don’t know how they do it in the US, but in the UK most big companies outsource application checks to several big clearing houses. They handle the logistics of checking qualifications and obtaining references from previous employers, plus the optional enhanced checking that some companies need (such as DBS/criminal record checks).
In the UK there is a single official centralised system for checking degree qualifications which covers most major universities. It’s also only a 5 minute job to email a university registrar directly. I think most big companies would consider this a bare minimum task when recruiting for any role where a qualification is in any way important.
My wife works in HR and she’s yet to work at a company that calls the registrars office.
It’s SOP over here. I even got bothered about it when I was in the final stage of hiring, because I graduated in December and put graduated in 2005 on my application despite officially getting the diploma in 2006.
That being said, if you’re applying for a job you’re never gonna get an interview for (Director or Manager roles without an MBA or BS) then you have quite literally nothing but your time to lose.
Reputation matters and you won’t get love in your industry by lying like this.
If you do get fired, and your employer flags you as “not eligible for rehire” that’s a big chunk of your career you can’t reference anymore because its now a black mark.
This is a big risk for anyone who isn’t simply scamming as a career.
If you do get fired, and your employer flags you as “not eligible for rehire” that’s a big chunk of your career you can’t reference anymore because its now a black mark.
Legally the business cannot say anything whatsoever about job performance or any reason behind hiring in terms of employment verification, at least where I am in Massachusetts. Employment verification here can only say dates of employment, starting job title and ending job title. Nothing else. If they say more is a massive liability and absolutely anybody can call up asking for employment verification, there’s no vetting… so getting caught telling more information is very possible.
Being banned from employment from one employer doesn’t usually do anything, and again, if you didn’t have a job to begin with and needed that foot in the door, and old small-midsize company that has zero real power, influence or clout beyond their domain will have zero impact on your job prospects. If you never get past offer phase it’s unlikely.
If you’re in a highly specialized field where there’s only a handful of people who can do your job then yes, EVERYONE in that field probably knows just who you are! But you can’t fake it till you make it at that level. low level managers and early-mid career white collar roles? Yeah you can bullshit your way through a lot of those.
Legally the business cannot say anything whatsoever about job performance or any reason behind hiring in terms of employment verification
Saying “no eligible for rehire” is enough to poison your reference.
Saying “no eligible for rehire” is enough to poison your reference.
HR departments are routinely told not to disclose that information by legal because it can result in a defamation lawsuit.
it’s not illegal for a prospective employer to ask the employee or formal employer that question, sure. A former employer would be putting their neck on the line though, because anybody can call your employment verification line. Very, very often employment verification is outsourced to eliminate any possibility of this liability.
If the policy is to never provide that information and you never provide it, you never have to go to court to prove that they are not re-hirable for a legitimate reason as a defendant in a defamation lawsuit. Background checks are typically not performed until an offer is on the table with a contingency for the former. Again, in massachusetts, the outcome of a background check must be legally provided to the one under scrutiny. If the thing that doesn’t check out is that employer’s statements, the evidence is right there. Lawyers drool over this shit.
Most not have worked with hr much. Low bars are still way to high and AI is reading resumes that aren’t stuffed with keywords
And it shouldn’t be too difficult to avoid getting caught. Most won’t bother checking, but if they do, you can always pick some accredited university that went defunct some years ago. It might be impossible to check if even if they wanted to. Then avoid giving details about anything from your college days, and hope a coworker doesn’t show up who actually went there.
you can always pick some accredited university that went defunct some years ago
Harvard is not one such school.
You’re not wrong, but I’d want to see more prosecution of job posting lies at the same time. Employers frequently add impossible requirements so they can hire H1Bs instead.
Please advise, my landlord won’t accept LinkedIn DMs as rent payment.
fire him; hire a new landlord
I once had a coworker whose CV said she had a BSc from Oxford University.
Clearly neither she nor our hiring manager knew much about Oxford.
I’ve got a BSc from Cambridge.
Apparently the graduate still looking for it wheeeeyyyyy
I have an old friend who worked in advertising for decades in Montreal. I talked to him about career advice once and I remember him saying something like this.
He said he just jumped into a low entry level position as a young 20 year old in the 70s, worked like a dog in a bunch of positions and eventually became a high level manager. He had a small college degree and he said that in his first position, they were just looking for someone … anyone … and he got in. No one ever checked his background or education … no one ever asked for documentation or anything. From that start, he just worked day in, day out and after about five years, he becomes a leading manager. After that point if anyone asked about his education, he pointed to his track record working for the company. 40 years later he retired with a wealthy pension.
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Counter-experience: I don’t have a college degree, but I have ~25 years’ experience in tech. I never submit anything in the “education” section of applications but typically haven’t had a problem getting interviews - including with the big name co’s. Admittedly, it’s possible I’m getting dropped silently from some applications but the only people who actually ask about my education at this point are recruiters looking to populate their database fields.
That would be nice… If companies still promoted people beyond the levels of, “beginner peon” to “senior peon.”
Companies don’t promote peons to management, only managers in peon roles get promoted. Just because you’re the best button pusher doesn’t mean you can succeed leading the button pushers.
you have companies that actually hire people instead of commissioning them as freelancers?
But my MSc was fully funded and I got to spend a year in cheap accommodation with subsidised beer, free fibre internet, and local Counter-Strike opponents.
Lucky. I lived on about 30 quid a week because my parents were deemed rich. I never got any aid from them lmao
