The study doesn’t match the headline.
Seriously. The rhetorical shift:
Study of American men’s self-reported political affiliation shows that “moderate” aligns pretty closely with “conservative.”
Headline assigns “moderate” political affiliation to Joe Biden, to suggest that Joe Biden’s policies align closely with “conservative.”
Biden campaigned on being the most progressive president in U.S. history. Did he deliver? Not on all metrics, but whatever it is he did, he wasn’t a secret conservative pretending to be moderate. The most you can accuse him of is being a moderate pretending to be progressive.
Biden was a fundamentalist catholic who thought homosexuality was a sin and abortion was murder.
Everything he did that could be considered progressive he did as a compromise to his own values - that’s what makes him a moderate.
That’s exactly the type of person this article is talking about.
Eh I’ve spoken to Biden personally about gay rights, dude’s not bigoted and leans into the progressive catholic church. His wife being a physician doesn’t see abortion as murder I don’t think. His conservative tendencies are that he’s establishment - he thinks he’s still playing the same football game they’ve been playing since he was a kid. He’s neoliberal as hell as is the entire Democratic leadership, which turns people off.
A catholic fundamentalist will only support marriage as a universal right when not supporting it becomes a liability, for the same reason catholicism and christianity writ large legitimized and supported the institutions of slavery and segregation for far longer than they were publicly popular for
Biden, for all his notable progressive compromises, will drag his feet against doing anything insufficiently popular, no matter how unjust the alternative is.
His wife being a physician
She isn’t though. She’s an Ed.D (her doctorate is in education) not an MD.
She also has an MEd, which is a Master’s in Education. I think people like the one you’re replying to skim her Wiki and read it as Med, as in Medical, which is hilarious.
I think people like the one you’re replying to skim her Wiki and read it as Med, as in Medical, which is hilarious.
I hadn’t thought of that. You’re probably right.
“Men on dating apps who say they’re moderate are conservative”
First, we knew that. Second, Biden is not on a dating app.
You sure about that?
You mean that the “hot senators in your area” ads are just scams!?!
Well, uh, which app do you have installed? I hear Grindr has trouble during the CPAC conventions.
Do you have a wide stance in the airport bathroom?
(Btw, these are the same people outlawing porn one state at a time.)
deleted by creator
“I’m a liberal on health care because I believe it is a birth right of every human being—not just some damn privilege to be meted out to a few people. But when it comes to issues like abortion, amnesty, and acid, I’m about as liberal as your grandmother. I don’t like the Supreme Court decision on abortion. I think it went too far. I don’t think that a woman has the sole right to say what should happen to her body. I support a limited amnesty, and I don’t think marijuana should be legalized.”
deleted by creator
Definitely wasn’t disagreeing with you haha
“experts say” is a bullshit phrase
deleted by creator
removed by mod
I never said he was. Quit making assumptions and have a conversation.
The problem is they have all been extremely successful at demonizing the alternatives. People are hesitant to even think about left ideas because they have been told their entire lives that they are evil.
My main issue with the far left parties in The Netherlands is that they seem to have no understanding of how the tax system works. They would increase social benefits and tax income and houses more. I have seen plans that if they went ahead with it would be taxed even more, but I already get no financial benefit from the government and we make below the median income.
Of course there are more points that they are better at and this post isn’t about NL, but still. I believe that there are a lot of people who don’t get financial benefit from left parties winning or from right parties winning. Unless they get rich. And then the more conservative option feels closer to home so ofc people vote more for that. That’s why you see so many conservative right governments in the west.
At least that’s my theory and one of the reasons why I try to vote on competent progressive middle people. At least when possibile.
Found the source:
Okay I read the source now and what I found funny is the part where people describe how “moderates” on dating apps are just conservatives. An observation I can regard as true in my experience, they are just self-aware enough to not be dismissed outright, but not self-aware enough to actually change a thing about themselves and become a better person.
Remembering how dating apps for conservative people tend to go down (only dudes, because what chick would engage with those guys…), I find it funny to see this echoed here again. There is, after all, no middle ground on most social issues anymore and we do good to see moderates as just another trick of conservative rebranding to obfuscate what they truly are.
Okay I read the source now and what I found funny is the part where people describe how “moderates” on dating apps are just conservatives. An observation I can regard as true in my experience, they are just self-aware enough to not be dismissed outright, but not self-aware enough to actually change a thing about themselves and become a better person.
This is DEEPLY VALIDATING thank you
removed by mod
As it should be! After all, self-validation is far more important than winning elections.
and being condescending to leftists especially when they are correct and it makes you annoyed you can’t come up with good rhetorical counter arguments that hold together logically… is the MOST important!!
removed by mod
removed by mod
There is, after all, no middle ground on most social issues anymore
There never was, unless you consider supporting desegregation but not interracial marriage a middle ground I guess.
Middle ground on social issues: “Separate but equal”
Some of them genuinely seem to be in some weird form of denial I can’t understand. I lost a friend from his slide during covid who would fit this. Self identified moderate who only ever defended right wing views and the worst of the grifters.
I experienced this recently with a coworker who talked himself in circles about how he cared about facts and logic and agreed with both parties on different issues. But…he spat out Republican grifter speech over and over (basic biology!) and talked about how he watched these “debate me” idiots online who showed how Democrats “barely ever back up their arguments with logic” while the Republicans apparently do (you probably know the ones, they’re famous grifters but I don’t remember their names), as if these guys wouldn’t simply edit out everything but the most extreme people to use as evidence for their claims.
I have a line from a song I like to use when talking about these sorts of people: Spread the facts out like a fan on the floor, throw away the ones that make you feel bad.
Cognitive dissonance is a requirement for this kind of thinking.
The entire issue with “the middle ground” is that it’s based in relativistic politics which is a complete non-stater since their goal is specifically to not to commit enough to any action such that it actually succeeds. There’re no thoughts behind those eyes, just a weird and bad compromise because they don’t understand anything and are just barely good enough people to not go 100% into hating minorities.
Yes! These people don’t have strong enough opinions to change things, therefore they support the Status quo, which is conservative.
I think this also has to do with how “we” refuse to speak of left and right as actual sets of ideals as opposed to relative positions. As far as voters go they see themselves as centrist because they aren’t far right fascists so they’re to the “left” of them, but they don’t agree with “the left” so they’re to the “right” of them. Their actual beliefs though would make them conservatives and so right wingers…
As far as politicians, they just want to get elected and the Bidens of the world know they can’t win as Republicans especially today.
but they don’t
agree withknow anything about “the left” so they’re to the “right” of them.FTFY.
People who call themselves centrist, are uneducated in regards to political terms. They don’t know what they are talking about, but assume they do and they never go out of their way to educate themselves on these matters.
Or they know exactly, but are straight up lying. Either way it means talking to those people is a waste of time.
Right, most of these idiots don’t have a clue what the Left actually is.
The wrong side of the road, that’s what it is.
That goes for all sides frankly
Most of these idiots believe in what the left would have the chance to propose if they hadn’t been brainwashed into believing that the left is communism is evil.
Social security? Accessible healthcare? Being able to live a comfortable life? Working hard leading to an appropriate reward?
Don’t underestimate the appeal of racism. The biggest barrier to the expansion of the US social safety net is the fact that many, many white people would willingly vote to make themselves poorer, so long as they kept an income advantage over black people. Many white voters would rather vote themselves into penury rather than see one black person get any form of government assistance.
That’s all part of the brainwashing, look at what Trump sold them, the end of the elite’s hold over their lives… That’s a left side message! I’m 100% sure the vast majority of them wouldn’t care about the race of beneficiaries if they were given the chance to understand that both them and black folks wouldn’t be the ones paying for it, the actual elite would be, but media would never give them that chance.
It’s not brainwashing though. It’s a cynical, evil, but rational attempt at race- and gender-based privilege and affirmative action. White men enjoyed massive affirmative action for the entirety of the nation’s history up until very recently. All the good jobs were arbitrarily assigned to white men; they didn’t have to compete with the majority of the population. They had an artificially-high opportunity for success simply handed to them from birth.
Racism and sexism are evil, but they’re also rational. This isn’t just dumb idiots being exploited with false promises. It’s a racial and gender group coming together and saying, “we’re going to come together and vote ourselves unearned privilege and opportunities. We will use the power of our votes to raise ourselves up at the expense of everyone else.”
Racism isn’t irrational; it’s just evil. Racism and sexism are perfectly materially rational. They’re a conspiracy by one group to give themselves unearned opportunities, power, and wealth. Dismissing it as “brainwashing” just completely misses the point of racism.
They’re brainwashed into believing that the enemy is people like them except for their skin color and not the rich white men exploiting both them and their perceived enemy. These people aren’t born racist, but they’re born at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder.
What comes to my mind is, that it’s great when people who work hard get rewarded, but that should only be an extra, not a necessity for a good life. And working too hard shouldn’t be glorified, there need to be limits.
Some people just want to work harder than required though (I’ve got a workaholic uncle but he just loves his job, my FiL spent his career working 60h/week in research out of choice…) and they should be rewarded accordingly, but as you say, working a full time schedule is already hard enough, it’s not normal that people can’t live comfortably doing that!
Our current system does not reward that extra hard work. The wealth distribution slow is barely perceptible for the bottom 97% of the population. When ~100 people hold half the country’s wealth, there’s none left for anyone else regardless of how hard you grind.
Exactly, that’s why I’m saying it’s a left wing thing to actually make it so that working more means getting more
Bothsiders are annoying. They’re the same people who see the terrible crap Trump has done, and are like “but what about [tiny thing]! He’s not all that bad”
Trump is a far-right fascist authoritarian, not the typical Republican we are used to.
They are pointing out validly that the Democratic party moved to the right to where centrists and old-school conservatives once sat.
And you’re allowed to disagree or see things differently.
I don’t think any both siders are around right now in America that aren’t right wing.
In saying that, this post and your comment are examples of the left today being excessively socially authoritarian which labels anyone who doesn’t completely conform the enemy.
The problem is that we see that sort of argument all the time on the internet, which gives us a skewed view of Republicans. The right wing is loud, even leaving out the shills trying to stir the pot.
Both political parties in America represent capital instead of people.
I align with Libertarian Socialism, a left ideology. This is also a leftist/anarchist instance and community. We aren’t Republicans in disguise.
One would have to have some serious bad faith or cognitive dissonance to be able to argue that both sides are the same as a person who firmly aligns with right-wing, capitalist ideology. Republicans thrive on promoting their differences in contrast to Democrats.
Left = Socialism, Right = Capitalism.
If you look at the Political Compass you will see that there are also authoritarians and libertarians (not the right-wing, capitalist ideology) on the Y axis.
Left authoritarians or left libertarians both are well educated on what the left represents. They are able to see the stark contrast between capitalistic parties and socialism.
Democrats are not left-wing or leftist — they most certainly aren’t socialist. They only tease at being socialist.
“bothsides” is by the majority of people in reference to the two political parties (in reference to america), not left wing and right wing in a political ideological sense. As you said both political parties operate within a system of opperssion fighting for control of power. Neither side is good, but one could say that one side is definitley more damaghing than the other in a realist sense.
i think though from my experience, today the left, specifically, moderern progressisvism has become far too socially authoritarian, as an arnarchist type i cant abide by any authoritarianism and the left is no stranger to it.
Neither capitalist party is preferable and capitalism is destroying the planet.
Democrats are not able to fight extreme authoritarianism, fascism, and oligarchy. They have no power or political gravitas. They can’t even take a stand for universal health care…
Value judgements of which side is better are irrelevant: the capitalist US economy relies on various forms of slavery (even child slavery) and third-world exploitation. An estimated 40% of US agricultural workers are undocumented immigrants.
Modern slavery must be abolished. Neither party is calling for the end of slavery, let alone addressing it — it’s a carefully veiled reality.
I agree that neither party is preferable in the sense that the democrats should be praised or idealised and i definitely agree that the democrats and in my opinion “modern progressives” have no ability to combat facism. As they are both the product of eating with a silver spoon for too long and both dont want to change the system of power, they just want to seize control of it and weild for themselves.
The left today is just too scattered to compete with facism. Either you’re a social authoritarain who seeks power but cannot take any tangile steps like facism or you are leftist like many people on this plastform and get stuck in semanticallyu intel;ectualising bygon theories and hyper spefici idealogical labels
I am focused on solutions, not ideology. I do my best to not flaunt the label that most accurately aligns with my ideals (unless relevant) and my ideas generally resonate with Democrats and even some Republicans. People want change and people want progress, no matter where you fall on the political spectrum.
Everybody, regardless of ideology, should be able to focus on solutions and the change we’d like to see — on what kind of world we want to live in. I want to live in a free and kind world, preferably without slavery. The vast majority of people likely feel similarly.
Even authoritarian socialists tend to resonate with that. They want to forcefully centralize power, resources, and control so eventually a more gentle world is born and the state is shed. They think force is necessary, I’m confident we can convince them otherwise.
Maybe it’s naive, but I can see a world that unifies under the banner of change and common sense solutions — a world that is able to cut past the propaganda and polarization and moves forward.
Yeah sorry i didnt intent for any of that to come accross like it was targetted at you.
To clarify i dont mean authoritarian socialists - i mean modern progressives who focus on social issues (not socialism) being overtly authoritarian within the realm of social dynamics in society.
I do think you are naive, but i think its a comendable mindset and just because i think you are naive does not mean anything other than that i dont share the same faith in people as you do. Maybe im too nihilitistic.
This kind of “same guy both sides” mentality is why you guys are fucked and why you fucked the rest of the world and gave us trump, he’s the same as Biden right so why not? You guys were like “we will never vote for Biden! Sick of old white guys. We need something different!”
“Here’s an educated black woman instead “
“… no. Not that”
The American left has splintered and nobody is good enough or left enough for anyone else, if you’re even slightly right or even left of someone you may as well be a genocidal Nazi. What’s an ally? No such thing to American leftists anymore, you either conform 100% or you’re a Nazi. Meanwhile the right united and smoked you guys. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, the American left has to reflect American culture, after all you’re American, so no wonder the American left lost their mind.
By the way, im shitting on American leftists only, we leftists around the world still have a brain and are shaking our heads at you guys
American liberals fucked themselves and the rest of the world.
American capitalist democracy has been failing for more than a decade and liberals have done nothing but defend it from reform.
The u.s needs young progressives, I never caught on to Bernie. How are people gonna complain about old white, wealthy men being i power while asking for Bernie?? Makes no sense. He’s got great ideas but can’t win and is too old. Hopefully AOC gets to be president before she becomes a corrupt career politician
I’d be ok with old if it came with socialist.
Ah yes, the liberal mentality where leftists are somehow both completely irrelevant as a voting bloc that politicians need to court, and at the same time leftists are solely responsible for any and all votes not received by whatever incompetent candidate the liberals presented.
Your comment only proves my point. This whole “liberal” being used in a derogatory way because you al think we should speak like Americans, and if you’re a liberal so what? I’m not an idiot who thinks a liberal is the same thing as maga, I have nuance. I am far more left than you but again proving my point, i disagree with you so therefore I must be maga right? You guys want no allies anymore, and then you cry that nobody takes your side. The American left has become extremists, and just as toxic as the right but in the opposite way
Dude, liberals are people who support and idealise capitalism. They are right wing. It’s like that around the world. It’s not “talking like Americans”. On the contrary, people from the US confuse what’s left and what’s liberal a lot. That’s a nuance to be aware of.
I can pull definitions of words out of my ass too. I can come up with quite a few for Americans. Funny thing is im indigenous and I have never experienced so much racism and intolerance from the left as I have this past election. My native ass getting lectured by middle class white kids about privilege and colonialism and genocide while they call me all sorts of horrible names for calling out their hypocrisy. Y’all loved and still benefit from the raping you gave my country and people, but lord forbid anyone call you Americans out for it.
The American left has reached a point where they think they are a bigger minority than actual minorities, and they are above the guilt of the system they live in just cause they grudge it while participating in it. The American left thinks they are above racism and bigotry, while practicing it. “All that horrible shit, that’s republicans! See so im not responsible! I can’t possibly be ignorant! I went to college and I put down people who didn’t regularly!” Is all the American left is now
I’m not sure if you are, directly criticizing me, or if that comment is more generally about the experiences you had. I have never even visited the US.
I’m sorry that you have to face all that racism.
we leftists around the world still have a brain
True, we could learn from you
Note to self: try insulting other leftists more?
You guys already do that, Democrat? Fuck you, centrist? Fuck you. Etc. that’s the point of my comment, that to you guys an ally is no longer acceptable
Dude the Dems have never bothered courting leftist votes. We have basically nothing in common ideologically except for maybe some crossover on identity politics stuff. Now y’all want to have our support because your prosecutor status-quo DNC candidate was defeated running on imo terrible unsupportable policies no different to Biden? We don’t do voting for the lesser evil. Put up an actual progressive candidate and leftists will be happy to vote for them. FYI being black or being a woman doesn’t automatically mean you’re progressive. That’s reductive and prioritises identity politics over policy substance. You don’t get to keep your neo-liberal policies and your leftist votes. Pick one or the other. And don’t blame leftists because you keep making the wrong choice.
You realize not everyone is in USA, yes?
Did you even read my comment? It states clearly that if you’re not American it’s not about you
This kind of “same guy both sides” mentality is why you guys are fucked and why you fucked the rest of the world and gave us trump
I mean, you’re kinda talking directly to me.
My hero!
What values are you talking about? You must have limited them to something like you shouldn’t eat cockroaches.
Leftists can pat themselves on the back for knowing this all they want… but the truth of the matter is that even leftists themselves have largely fallen for the propagandistic myth that liberalism is (somehow) “less” right-wing than it’s fascist co-conspirators.
Just the introductory Wikipedia page on liberalism makes it perfectly clear that liberalism fetishises the very “ideals” that all but ensure the power and privilege of the already-wealthy at the expense of everyone and everything else (you know… the power and privilege that fascism exists to protect through the use of unbridled state violence) - yet I do not see leftists coming up with any bright ideas to fight liberalism in the same way that leftists oppose fascism.
the truth of the matter is that even leftists themselves have largely fallen for the propagandistic myth that liberalism is (somehow) “less” right-wing than it’s fascist co-conspirators.
I believe the line is “fascism is imperialism returning to the core”. But if you’re living in the core, there’s obviously a huge difference.
liberalism fetishises the very “ideals” that all but ensure the power and privilege of the already-wealthy at the expense of everyone and everything else
When aristocrats run your schools, you’re going to get an academic view that’s very friendly to their place in the world.
But that isn’t strictly an issue of liberalism, it’s the corrosive consequences of philanthropy. Powerful and privileged people fetishize themselves. The rest of us are left to rationalize what we see and hear from a privatized media.
I believe the line is “fascism is imperialism returning to the core”.
I prefer mine - fascism is just colonialism coming home to roost.
But if you’re living in the core, there’s obviously a huge difference.
I don’t really understand what you mean by this.
But that isn’t strictly an issue of liberalism, it’s the corrosive consequences of philanthropy.
I’d say that it is… so-called “philanthropy” is a perfectly liberal way of “humanising” the intended beneficiaries of liberal ideology - ie, capitalists. It’s no different than the aristocracy “humanising” themselves by tossing alms to the peasantry.
I don’t really understand what you mean by this.
I mean there’s a very big difference between living in the comfort of the core under a liberal regime and living during a reactionary pogrom.
I’d say that it is… so-called “philanthropy” is a perfectly liberal way of “humanising” the intended beneficiaries of liberal ideology - ie, capitalists. It’s no different than the aristocracy “humanising” themselves by tossing alms to the peasantry.
Sure. The only real difference is technology and scale. But the scale matters a lot, because its easy to see a straight line between a lord’s lackey distributing alms. It is significantly more difficult for someone to understand why AEI shills and Ford Foundation hacks keep showing up on NPR to parrot right-wing economic talking points couched in progressive verbage. It is more difficult to understand the scale of Walton Family wealth or the degree to which cryptocurrency speculation has been used to hijack Congressional campaigns.
Larger and more complex systems are more difficult to resist, in no small part because they become difficult to recognize as a material problem rather than just a foundation of daily life.
blah blah
Oh, look… a liberal that is still sore that their liberal celebrities got caught with their hands in the genocide cookie jar.
deleted by creator
I actually couldn’t give a fuck about Gaza or Israel.
It’s only your honesty that’s surprising, liberal. But only mildly so.
Just because I’m liberal doesn’t mean I believe in X or Y or Z
You’re a liberal, and you believe liberal brain-rot. Is that difficult to understand?
They can sort it out themselves as far as I’m concerned.
So will you be telling your liberal celebs to stop being the world’s most prolific sponsor of fascist terrorism any time soon? Or are you still too fond of the brutal colonialism that allows your spoilt and meaningless existence to continue?
you’re fucking delusional man
Now, now, liberal… don’t get excited. You don’t want to be seen to be “non-moderate” while you’re busy “reaching across the aisle,” eh?
Uhh, which leftists have you been talking to? Are you sure they weren’t psyops?
Since the majority of the population is liberal in the US. To effectively fight fascism is to work with liberals against fascism. We don’t have to agree with liberals. Once we have some room to breathe we can then start picking fights with liberals again.
To effectively fight fascism is to work with liberals against fascism.
You CAN’T fight fascism in alliance with the very people who literally invented fascist institutions (such as the police, for instance) to protect the status quo from the people at the bottom of our society.
The fascists ARE their allies.
Well then, let me know when you’re going to start the revolution with 5% of the population. I’ll be rooting for you. Good luck!
I’ll be rooting for you.
No. You won’t. You’ll be too busy licking fascist boot.
There you go. That’s how you win. You build the smallest tent possible. Honestly, you could do better. If you can just find a way to alienate everyone, surely the fascist will lose.
It’s hard to alienate everyone, but I believe in you. I think you got the sauce.
but I believe in you.
I also believe in you - you CAN get that entire boot into your mouth if you try hard enough.
Liberals are fascist apologists.
The do a LOT more than just apologise for fascists, I’m afraid.
Leftists come up with bright ideas to fight capitalist liberals since thousands of years.
Liberalism hasn’t existed for a thousand years, smoothbrain.
Yes, thousands of years is a big overexaggeration. But I don’t understand why you would say, that you don’t see leftists come up with ideas to fight liberalism. People who call themselves left and people who call themselves liberal have been fighting long before the fascist party was founded.
that you don’t see leftists come up with ideas to fight liberalism
Where are these ideas?
People who call themselves left and people who call themselves liberal have been fighting long before the fascist party was founded.
Where do you see this?
You have read communist or anarchistic theory right?
So you have nothing to show?
What do you mean, nothing to show? Just read any theory and you see the ideas people came up with.
Most Democrats don’t realize that capitalism relies on actual slavery… presently. They don’t know that the products they consume revolve around supply chains that even include child slavery. They don’t know the actual effects of US imperialism, regime change, and third-world exploitation. They don’t know that an estimated 40% of US agricultural workers are undocumented immigrants — modern slaves, with no human rights. I’m not being hyperbolic at all, but I suggest everybody do their own research.
Democrats are propagandized to not want to come to terms with the fact that even first-world workers are slaves. They may not be “owned”, but damn near — everybody is getting a raw deal under capitalism besides those that extract the vast majority of value, wealth, power, influence, and control.
Democrats are subjected to intense campaigns that include gaslighting, propaganda, and coercion, while critical facts and the actual reality is veiled to them.
Even US military policy and the reserve currency is designed to exploit emerging markets. The reason the US can print so much money every year to fund all its programs is because other countries are required to trade in USD so will buy it even though its being inflated so much, and if they decide to trade in something like gold dinars they get overthrown.
The entire US system is built on top of consumerism. Not saying we are better in NL or Europe, but the US really exploded the consumerism and abused the angelo saxton mindset. Well and the US has been corrupt for a while, probably since it was founded that doesn’t help either.
Well well well.
In France we have a saying “Si t’es pas de gauche, t’es de droite” i.e “if you’re not a leftist, then you’re on the right wing” meaning that if you do not explicitly reject the paradigm supported by the right then you’re implicitly accepting it and thus indirectly support right wing and conservatism.
Seems a bit suspect and authoritarian…
Does it work in reverse? If not, why not?
My first thought was, that’s just GWB’s “if you are not with us you are against us”, with different words.
I think the French saying is a response to rising Fascism. If Fascism is taking power in your society and you do not directly and explicitly oppose it, then you are at the very least going to be tacitly supporting it. By definition, centrism cannot fight Fascism, because it will always “both sides” the problem, which ultimately only benefits the Fascists. This is what we are seeing now in the US with the Democrats. The only realistic opposition to Fascism in this scenario is Leftism.
I see what you mean and when I first heard that saying I thought so too. That’s why I developed a bit after. In my opinion it does not mean “if you’re not with us you’re against us in an irreversible manner” at all (I don’t fight against individuals, I fight against a toxic ideology). To me, it mostly aims to denounce the fact that centrists are actually right wing people who don’t admit it. And, at least in France, the situation tends to confirm that : Macron was officially “neither on the left nor on the right” and it has become clearer and clearer that he is, in fact, completely on the right end of the political spectrum (if not worse for some of our ministers like Retailleau who clearly carries a far right ideology).
In the Netherlands we are lucky that we have actually have a spectrum you can choose from. I am not that versed in the France political system, but I don’t believe in that you are either left or you are right.
I think most people can agree with statements from both the left and the right. At least if they get room to express that.
If you look at left and right political in the Netherlands than there is also an issue. The left generally wants higher taxes for the rich and more income for the poor. The right generally want lower taxes for businesses and want to pay the poor less money to compensate that or something like that. Neither side will focus on the middle class, but currently in The Netherlands it’s the middle class who pay the most taxes percentage wise. (The loss of govern ant benefits, increases the percentage you are taxed in this calculation).
I do believe that there are a lot of good politicians who can parade as somebody else while campaigning and then doing other things after they are chosen. That’s why you generally want more than one person to make decisions. However having 225 people who decide the direction of the country is not working either …
I think middle class is a misleading term. All it does is splitting and weakening the working class.
At least here in NL there is a difference between the poor who receive social security, the people who earn a bit more but get (almost) no social security and the rich. The “middle” here is often a forgotten part due to people like you grouping everybody who isn’t rich. It happens regularly that people in the early middle class earn less after a payrose due to the loss of social security. The missing out on social security, but also paying taxes makes it feel like you pay a lot more taxes and percentage wise you do
So at least in NL there is a real difference.
There is also a difference between people who work for a boss or people who are self employed or people who are shareholders.
I’m not sure it’s a winning argument that’s all.
Most people aren’t political if they don’t have to be, the only time they think of politics when they have to vote or something is taken from them.
To call them the opposite of what you are just because they feel like they are unsure because they haven’t thought about it as a way to shame them into your position is to lose them and play into your opposition’s hands - “these crazy people are calling you Nazis/Communists”.
Two sides can play the centrist card to grab the unsure while driving a different agenda - I don’t see what’s stopping the left.
Eg Most people are not aware of how much damage France is doing in west Africa through proxy colonialism - if you ask them they’ll probably shrug. If you ask them to vote on it they’ll pick someone that seems somewhere in the middle. Are they colonialist oppressors? Seems like a far fetch.
Now try to strong arm them into a position, how do you think it’s going to go?
I’m not trying to cause or win an argument, I’ll stop here.
Their willful ignorance doesn’t change that they support right wing politics.
That looks like an article in regards to a study. Is there further information? Would be really interesting to read the full thing
Someone else in the comments provided this
Sorry I only found the meme. Sounds it should be googlable.
