Saudi Arabia’s top diplomat has said the kingdom will not normalize relations with Israel or contribute to Gaza’s reconstruction without a credible pathway to a Palestinian state.
Commenter above you doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The reason why the United States has such a large Jewish population is they were escaping ethnic cleansing and anti semitisim in Europe. Not saying the United States is perfect by any means and no anti semitisim exists there, but yes increased tolerance is a principal reason why they were emigrating to the US.
It’s not as though I implied the US wants to send their Jewish population to concentration camps or something.
All I meant was that America is not the bastion of tolerance that their comment would suggest it is. I think that’s pretty obvious to anyone who reads the news.
It’s just a bit of a weird time to criticize the United States tolerance of Jewish people in a thread about “why didn’t they all move to America?” when in actuality millions of them did for exactly that reason. The improved tolerance in the United States in comparison to Europe throughout the 19th and 20th centuries is why they now have the largest Jewish population in the world second only to Israel. Not that the United States is perfect or shouldn’t keep working on improving tolerance of others by any means.
I don’t know enough about the subject to speculate about what an average American thought of Jewish immigrants - or any other immigrant population - during those centuries. I’m also neither American nor Jewish, so I can’t speak personally about the day-to-day reality of that relationship currently.
What modern news and history have to say about America’s tolerance level though… that is up for debate, and they tell a more complex story. While we’re considering dates, a relevant example may be that the United States only abolished slavery in the 1860s. I’ll grant you that speaks to the persecution of a different population, but I doubt the bigots who fought to preserve that ‘right’ during the American Civil War were choosy.
Please don’t misunderstand me; I don’t doubt that many Jewish people that emigrated to the United States have had better lives than they otherwise would have. I’m also not implying that the average American today is hateful or bigoted. I just don’t agree with the notion that the world would inherently be a better place if every Jewish person impacted by diaspora ended up in the United States specifically.
Oh absolutely, I did not mean to imply I agreed with that original poster that all Jewish people should have been forcibly emigrated to the United States or whatever bad take that was. I just thought it was bizarre they were saying “why didn’t this happen?” about Jewish people leaving for America when it literally did happen.
Uh… Zionists had 28 years before the founding of Israel to get everyone to hate Jews all they want. Remember that the militias that formed the IDF were terrorist organizations before that, and the whole “let’s create an Apartheid state in Palestine” thing was inherently pretty objectionable.
Yes? Especially if the territory of that state is forcibly taken away from others who are living on it
Creating the United States was similarly terrible as it involved the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Native Americans. Same with Australia. Same with South Africa. Same with Rhodesia.
Forcibly taking someone’s home and cleansing an area of an ethnicity is certainly regarded as one of the worst actions a group of people can do. And rightly so
No that’s not what I meant. I’m blaming Zionists for the anti-semitism all Jews experience in the middle east. Because that’s exactly what happened; most Middle Eastern countries (including Ottoman Palestine) had Jews who could live peacefully before Zionists started their settler colonialism project. I’m not saying it’s justified, don’t get me wrong; it’s stupid and horrible and I sincerely believe the pogroms that happened in the Middle East at the time were unjustifiable atrocities. But, that doesn’t mean we should ignore the cause.
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi Jews who fled to Israel after almost all of them, some 850,000 in total, were expelled or pressured out of Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries from 1948 through the 1950s. About 72% (650,000) settled in Israel.
Mizrahi is a modern term used to erase the European origin of many Jewish communities living in the former Ottoman empire.
This argument is often used by Zionists to suggest that the majority of the modern Israeli population is made up of indigenous groups. This is not correct.
I mean that kind of happened already. There’s a reason why the United States has the second highest Jewish population in the world, less only than Israel and not by much. Rampant anti semitisim in Europe among other reasons drove many to emigrate to the US. Between 1880 and 1914 alone, 2 million Ashkenazi Jewish people immigrated to the United States to escape ethnic cleansing pogroms in Eastern Europe.
People in Palestine actually welcome them, and it is not Jew it is the Zainoist movement that were supported ( not sure who exactly gave them guns ) and started two organizations that committed multiple massacres before forming Israel.
These were already after Zionists were already moving to the land in droves and trying to set up the Israeli state. That’s like saying the Native Americans were violent anti-Americans for attacking settler colonies during the Wild West. The process of displacement and settler colonialism was already way underway by that time and seen in real time by the local. Rather than give them their own state as promised after WWI, Britain instead not only kept Palestine, but used it so all the antisemitic European countries had somewhere to put their Jews. Revisionist Zionists happily accepted this arrangement and once they had the numbers, started setting up terrorist and paramilitary groups and prepping for their future state.
But Jewish immigration has been happening for awhile before the violence had started, and during that time, relations between the groups were almost entirely peaceful and accepting. Keep in mind that migrations were happening in the 1800’s and even earlier, way before your Wikipedia time line starts.
Ethnostates are inherently bad. You cannot have a state for a single ethnicity or religion and not have it descend into apartheid or worse. Zionism is inherently bad.
Of course, it would be ideal if there was no minority oppression whatsoever. However, once you see things such as holocaust, we must assure that the actions won’t happen again. How else would you want to garant it in a better way than creating a state?
You would feel differently if you and your family were forcibly evicted from your land and told it belonged to others now.
Especially if you and your family had absolutely no connection to an event like the Holocaust. Which is the situation that the Palestinians experienced - last I checked it was Germans, not Arabs, who committed the Holocaust. And yet, somehow, no German land was converted into a new state.
Um, kind of, Prussia and Silesia have been converted from German land to Polish land, just so that Poland could move all their people from east Poland to west Poland and give east Polish lands to the USSR (and now Ukraine).
So the Germans lost that land, but the Jews didn’t get it. The English instead gave them their Palestine.
My friend, more groups were killed than just Jewish peoples in the Holocaust. Are you advocating for a state for Roma people also? Where should we get that state to give to them? There is and has been no such thing as “open” land for centuries, since the completion of the partitioning of the world between imperialist states in the previous centuries. So, by advocating for state creation, you are inherently advocating for dispossession and expulsion of those who live in that area.
What about the indigenous Americans whom have suffered the worst known genocide in human history, should we pick a place in Europe and give them a country there by kicking out the historic residents of that region? Why is granting a people statehood your only perceived method of preventing violence?
How and where can you set up this mythical state without inherently requiring the kinds of oppressions and violence we see in Israel?
Imagine how much better the world would be if Jews migrated to the US instead of directly in the middle of people who hate them the most.
Zionism is a plague that is responsible for untold damage.
Ah yes, the United States; famously a leading example of tolerance and acceptance for everyone. /s
? Look at how we accommodate Mormons.
Mormonism (as I’m sure you already know) started in America during the 1820s.
We didn’t for a good while…
Commenter above you doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The reason why the United States has such a large Jewish population is they were escaping ethnic cleansing and anti semitisim in Europe. Not saying the United States is perfect by any means and no anti semitisim exists there, but yes increased tolerance is a principal reason why they were emigrating to the US.
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It’s not as though I implied the US wants to send their Jewish population to concentration camps or something.
All I meant was that America is not the bastion of tolerance that their comment would suggest it is. I think that’s pretty obvious to anyone who reads the news.
It’s just a bit of a weird time to criticize the United States tolerance of Jewish people in a thread about “why didn’t they all move to America?” when in actuality millions of them did for exactly that reason. The improved tolerance in the United States in comparison to Europe throughout the 19th and 20th centuries is why they now have the largest Jewish population in the world second only to Israel. Not that the United States is perfect or shouldn’t keep working on improving tolerance of others by any means.
I don’t know enough about the subject to speculate about what an average American thought of Jewish immigrants - or any other immigrant population - during those centuries. I’m also neither American nor Jewish, so I can’t speak personally about the day-to-day reality of that relationship currently.
What modern news and history have to say about America’s tolerance level though… that is up for debate, and they tell a more complex story. While we’re considering dates, a relevant example may be that the United States only abolished slavery in the 1860s. I’ll grant you that speaks to the persecution of a different population, but I doubt the bigots who fought to preserve that ‘right’ during the American Civil War were choosy.
Please don’t misunderstand me; I don’t doubt that many Jewish people that emigrated to the United States have had better lives than they otherwise would have. I’m also not implying that the average American today is hateful or bigoted. I just don’t agree with the notion that the world would inherently be a better place if every Jewish person impacted by diaspora ended up in the United States specifically.
Oh absolutely, I did not mean to imply I agreed with that original poster that all Jewish people should have been forcibly emigrated to the United States or whatever bad take that was. I just thought it was bizarre they were saying “why didn’t this happen?” about Jewish people leaving for America when it literally did happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States
Fair enough, maybe just a miscommunication between us then. I appreciate the respectful discussion either way.
It’s not even that. Zionists caused the Middle East to hate Jews.
Yeah, nah. Their neighbors declared war on Israel the literal moment Israel was founded. They hadn’t even had time to piss anyone off.
Uh… Zionists had 28 years before the founding of Israel to get everyone to hate Jews all they want. Remember that the militias that formed the IDF were terrorist organizations before that, and the whole “let’s create an Apartheid state in Palestine” thing was inherently pretty objectionable.
Nah uh! Recorded History starts in 1947!
Because the very creation of Israel was a settler colonialist state ethnically cleansing the local population.
I would say their neighbours had plenty to be pissed off about.
How? By this logic creating a state is the worst action a group of people can do.
Yes? Especially if the territory of that state is forcibly taken away from others who are living on it
Creating the United States was similarly terrible as it involved the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Native Americans. Same with Australia. Same with South Africa. Same with Rhodesia.
Forcibly taking someone’s home and cleansing an area of an ethnicity is certainly regarded as one of the worst actions a group of people can do. And rightly so
Of course, the way Israel was created was not ideal. I do not agree that Israel should have forced people out.
Just like many Arab countries should not have forced Jews out.
But unfortunately, it’s not very feasible to return it to the previous state now…
A lot of countries have a right of return. It works just fine. They may not be able to get the family farm back, but we can’t win everything.
You see, we can’t win everything. Hence why we cannot “win” Palestine from the river to the sea.
When you do that on someone else’s land?
We call that colonialism and the people who’s land it was generally aren’t too thrilled
Blaming Jews for the antisemitism they experience is antisemitism 101, buddy.
No that’s not what I meant. I’m blaming Zionists for the anti-semitism all Jews experience in the middle east. Because that’s exactly what happened; most Middle Eastern countries (including Ottoman Palestine) had Jews who could live peacefully before Zionists started their settler colonialism project. I’m not saying it’s justified, don’t get me wrong; it’s stupid and horrible and I sincerely believe the pogroms that happened in the Middle East at the time were unjustifiable atrocities. But, that doesn’t mean we should ignore the cause.
Zionists does not equal Jews. There are plenty of Jews who aren’t Zionists and lots of Zionists who aren’t Jewish.
The only thing you’re actually saying here is that you’re not familiar with the history of the Middle East prior to about 1948.
Uh… We should be counting from 1917, and before that point anti-semitism in the Middle East wasn’t anything close to the point it is today.
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi Jews who fled to Israel after almost all of them, some 850,000 in total, were expelled or pressured out of Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries from 1948 through the 1950s. About 72% (650,000) settled in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
The notion that Jewish Israelis are just Europeans is a profoundly racist and ignorant belief.
Even if that’s true they certainly jumped on the settler colonialism bandwagon from Europe quick enough.
A couple notes:
Mizrahi is a modern term used to erase the European origin of many Jewish communities living in the former Ottoman empire.
This argument is often used by Zionists to suggest that the majority of the modern Israeli population is made up of indigenous groups. This is not correct.
I mean that kind of happened already. There’s a reason why the United States has the second highest Jewish population in the world, less only than Israel and not by much. Rampant anti semitisim in Europe among other reasons drove many to emigrate to the US. Between 1880 and 1914 alone, 2 million Ashkenazi Jewish people immigrated to the United States to escape ethnic cleansing pogroms in Eastern Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States
People in Palestine actually welcome them, and it is not Jew it is the Zainoist movement that were supported ( not sure who exactly gave them guns ) and started two organizations that committed multiple massacres before forming Israel.
Hhmmmmmmmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world
These were already after Zionists were already moving to the land in droves and trying to set up the Israeli state. That’s like saying the Native Americans were violent anti-Americans for attacking settler colonies during the Wild West. The process of displacement and settler colonialism was already way underway by that time and seen in real time by the local. Rather than give them their own state as promised after WWI, Britain instead not only kept Palestine, but used it so all the antisemitic European countries had somewhere to put their Jews. Revisionist Zionists happily accepted this arrangement and once they had the numbers, started setting up terrorist and paramilitary groups and prepping for their future state.
But Jewish immigration has been happening for awhile before the violence had started, and during that time, relations between the groups were almost entirely peaceful and accepting. Keep in mind that migrations were happening in the 1800’s and even earlier, way before your Wikipedia time line starts.
Btw, some of these Zionist groups tried to coordinate with the Nazis, too. And they’ve never reconciled with that. One of them became prime minister, and Netanyahu has a figure of the founder of Lehi behind his desk, too.
Zionism itself is not that bad. I believe that after many years of oppression Jews deserve to have their own state.
However, radical Zionism (such as Kahanism) is a plague.
The belief that any group of people are entitled to live anywhere because of their religion (religious nationalism) is bad.
I agree, however, once a certain group is oppressed for decades, a state where they can continue living seems very logical
Sure, but I don’t think they should get to pick and choose where they get to be.
Zionists disagree, and this is the result of appeasing them.
So what should we do? Ask them where they want to belong, remove that place from list and vote again?
No, I didn’t suggest that and don’t pretend that I did.
How about a compromise? There is plenty of room in the US for them.
Ethnostates are inherently bad. You cannot have a state for a single ethnicity or religion and not have it descend into apartheid or worse. Zionism is inherently bad.
Of course, it would be ideal if there was no minority oppression whatsoever. However, once you see things such as holocaust, we must assure that the actions won’t happen again. How else would you want to garant it in a better way than creating a state?
You would feel differently if you and your family were forcibly evicted from your land and told it belonged to others now.
Especially if you and your family had absolutely no connection to an event like the Holocaust. Which is the situation that the Palestinians experienced - last I checked it was Germans, not Arabs, who committed the Holocaust. And yet, somehow, no German land was converted into a new state.
Arab authorities supported Hitler in general.
But I partially agree with you. Israel should have been established but at the same time lives of people there should have been unchanged.
Just like no Jews should have been expelled from Arab countries.
Unfortunately, they started a war and it ended badly for both sides.
Um, kind of, Prussia and Silesia have been converted from German land to Polish land, just so that Poland could move all their people from east Poland to west Poland and give east Polish lands to the USSR (and now Ukraine).
So the Germans lost that land, but the Jews didn’t get it. The English instead gave them their Palestine.
Dude, that was Russia doing that. Russia controlled that entire region until 1990.
I wrote USSR, what do you mean?
You were using that to justify the English giving Palestine to the Israelis. But two wrongs doesn’t make a right.
My friend, more groups were killed than just Jewish peoples in the Holocaust. Are you advocating for a state for Roma people also? Where should we get that state to give to them? There is and has been no such thing as “open” land for centuries, since the completion of the partitioning of the world between imperialist states in the previous centuries. So, by advocating for state creation, you are inherently advocating for dispossession and expulsion of those who live in that area.
What about the indigenous Americans whom have suffered the worst known genocide in human history, should we pick a place in Europe and give them a country there by kicking out the historic residents of that region? Why is granting a people statehood your only perceived method of preventing violence?
How and where can you set up this mythical state without inherently requiring the kinds of oppressions and violence we see in Israel?
I demand a gay state only for LGBT+ people, especially because after the war we were left in the camps still.
Shit we also need a state just for the leftists who were locked up.
And a 3rd for the queer leftists.
And the furries have had it too hard for too long. Where is their state?
Nah Furries didn’t even exist like 20 years ago. It’s just some internet neckbeards.
I’m pagan, give me a fucking state, too. I demand Britain since Stonehenge is located there.